Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!rutgers!dayton!ems!mark From: m...@ems.UUCP Newsgroups: comp.sources.d Subject: Public Domain Yacc (Important) Message-ID: <142@ems.UUCP> Date: Tue, 3-Feb-87 21:05:33 EST Article-I.D.: ems.142 Posted: Tue Feb 3 21:05:33 1987 Date-Received: Wed, 4-Feb-87 19:16:56 EST Sender: n...@ems.UUCP Reply-To: m...@ems.UUCP (Mark H. Colburn) Distribution: world Organization: EMS/McGraw-Hill, Eden Prairie Lines: 26 Sigh! I spent a week tracking down the person who I got the YACC sources from, just to make sure that the source was indeed in the public domain before I posted it. I really did, I tried. He lied. I got a message from an individual on the net who compared the source to the AT&T distribution. He said that the code looked a lot like the AT&T version. I decided that I had best make sure that the source was or was not AT&T proprietary. After much hasseling, I finally got a look at the AT&T version of the source code. Not only does it look very similar, in many places it is exactly the same. Some of the comments and code have been removed/reworded/added to but that does not change the fact that the source is a direct copy, or a derivative work of the AT&T source. I have cancelled the articles that I sent out. I urge (plead?) anybody that got a copy off the net to destroy it. I have deleted all copies of it that I had. Needless to say, I will not be posting the lex source which I got from the same source that I got yacc from. I am sorry for the inconvience.
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!rutgers!mit-eddie!husc6!ddl From: d...@husc6.UUCP Newsgroups: comp.sources.d Subject: Re: Public Domain Yacc (Important) Message-ID: <1170@husc6.UUCP> Date: Wed, 4-Feb-87 01:43:37 EST Article-I.D.: husc6.1170 Posted: Wed Feb 4 01:43:37 1987 Date-Received: Thu, 5-Feb-87 06:43:48 EST References: <142@ems.UUCP> Distribution: world Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge MA Lines: 35 In article <1...@ems.UUCP>, m...@ems.UUCP (Mark H. Colburn) writes: > > Sigh! I spent a week tracking down the person who I got the > YACC sources from, just to make sure that the source was indeed > in the public domain before I posted it. I really did, I tried. > He lied. > > I got a message from an individual on the net who compared the > source to the AT&T distribution. He said that the code looked > a lot like the AT&T version. I decided that I had best make > sure that the source was or was not AT&T proprietary. Just because it looks like the AT&T source doesn't mean it is a derivative work. It was my impression that there was a public domain yacc which was derived from the same source as the AT&T yacc--but not FROM the AT&T yacc. This yacc (and a lex) are being sold for the IBM PC by some small company and the code also looks a lot like AT&T yacc. Now the point of all this is that we should avoid setting a dangerous precedent: AT&T's proprietary rights (if any) should not be allowed to extend retroactively to code that they have acquired elsewhere! This is a great way to keep a monopoly on software, but I don't *think* it makes legal sense. If it does, I should grab as much public domain code as I can and start legal action against everyone else using it and and... In any case, it seems to me that once something has been distributed in this way the proprietary status (if any) is kind of lost. Assuming that this yacc is indeed AT&T's yacc, can AT&T really prosecute everyone who picks up a copy from the posting? Don't they have to show that they made some attempt to maintain secrecy? Even if they did (did they?) isn't there something about one person taking in good faith some information and thereby removing its proprietary status? Can anyone clarify this? Dan Lanciani ddl@harvard.*
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site yetti.UUCP Path: utzoo!mnetor!yetti!oz From: o...@yetti.UUCP (Ozan Yigit) Newsgroups: comp.sources.d Subject: Re: Public Domain (?) Yacc (Important) [I TOLD the NET SO!!] Message-ID: <464@yetti.UUCP> Date: Wed, 4-Feb-87 23:17:28 EST Article-I.D.: yetti.464 Posted: Wed Feb 4 23:17:28 1987 Date-Received: Thu, 5-Feb-87 18:40:55 EST References: <142@ems.UUCP> Reply-To: o...@yetti.UUCP (Ozan Yigit) Distribution: world Organization: York University Computer Science Lines: 40 In article <1...@ems.UUCP> m...@ems.UUCP (Mark H. Colburn) writes: > > > I got a message from an individual on the net who compared the > source to the AT&T distribution. He said that the code looked > a lot like the AT&T version. I decided that I had best make > sure that the source was or was not AT&T proprietary. > > After much hasseling, I finally got a look at the AT&T version > of the source code. Not only does it look very similar, in many > places it is exactly the same. Some of the comments and code > have been removed/reworded/added to but that does not change > the fact that the source is a direct copy, or a derivative work > of the AT&T source. > The discussion of this so-called PD Yacc comes and goes thru this net, and *every time*, until I am blue in the face, I remind people that it is *the* UNIX yacc, broken to little pieces so that it could compile under DECUS C compiler. I saw this program eons ago, on an RSX-11 tape. Some ignorabilis decided to submit it to DECUS, and it did not occur to DECUS to check. [Same thing happened with EMPIRE sources, but DECUS got a rap from the author, and withdrew the sources.] Therefore, in order to preserve the legal integrity of the net, *it is crucial that this YACC be gotten rid of*, unless you enjoy risking your company, yourself and the net.. There is, however, one important point: Unless a copyright violation is challenged, copyrights may be lost. Something for AT&T to think about - someone *sells* this bloody thing !!. But than again, I said all of this before... oz -- The best way to have a Usenet: [decvax|ihnp4]!utzoo!yetti!oz good idea is to have a Bitnet: oz@[yusol|yuyetti].BITNET lot of ideas. Phonet: [416] 736-5053 x 3976
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!rutgers!ames!oliveb!epimass!jbuck From: jb...@epimass.UUCP Newsgroups: comp.sources.d Subject: Re: Public Domain Yacc (Important) Message-ID: <867@epimass.UUCP> Date: Thu, 5-Feb-87 16:42:44 EST Article-I.D.: epimass.867 Posted: Thu Feb 5 16:42:44 1987 Date-Received: Sat, 7-Feb-87 15:46:46 EST References: <142@ems.UUCP> <1170@husc6.UUCP> Reply-To: jb...@epimass.UUCP (Joe Buck) Distribution: world Organization: Entropic Processing, Inc., Cupertino, CA Lines: 30 Summary: I wouldn't advise using it In article <1...@husc6.UUCP> d...@husc6.UUCP (Dan Lanciani) writes: >In article <1...@ems.UUCP>, m...@ems.UUCP (Mark H. Colburn) writes: >> >> Sigh! I spent a week tracking down the person who I got the >> YACC sources from, just to make sure that the source was indeed >> in the public domain before I posted it. I really did, I tried. >> He lied. > In any case, it seems to me that once something has been >distributed in this way the proprietary status (if any) is kind of >lost. Assuming that this yacc is indeed AT&T's yacc, can AT&T really >prosecute everyone who picks up a copy from the posting? Well, they could conceivably sue Mark Colburn, the backbone, every news site, or whatever. One big lawsuit and Usenet is gone. I recommend that everyone get rid of the posted yacc. If you really want a pd yacc, "bison" is available from the Gnu project, and you won't be vulnerable to a suit. There has already been the case of a site removing itself from the net because someone at that site posted proprietary code. Someone could post the entire Unix source to the net. It would then be in the public domain. But AT&T would be entitled to recover tens of millions of dollars in damages to everyone responsible, and nontechnical people would decide who's responsible. Everyone on the net might be required to ante up. It's scary to think about. -- - Joe Buck {hplabs,ihnp4,sun,ames}!oliveb!epimass!jbuck HASA (A,S) Entropic Processing, Inc., Cupertino, California
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!rutgers!husc6!ddl From: d...@husc6.UUCP Newsgroups: comp.sources.d Subject: Re: Public Domain Yacc (Important) Message-ID: <1179@husc6.UUCP> Date: Fri, 6-Feb-87 03:23:46 EST Article-I.D.: husc6.1179 Posted: Fri Feb 6 03:23:46 1987 Date-Received: Sat, 7-Feb-87 17:14:49 EST References: <142@ems.UUCP> <1170@husc6.UUCP> <867@epimass.UUCP> Distribution: world Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge MA Lines: 46 In article <8...@epimass.UUCP>, jb...@epimass.UUCP (Joe Buck) writes: > Well, they could conceivably sue Mark Colburn, the backbone, every > news site, or whatever. One big lawsuit and Usenet is gone. I > recommend that everyone get rid of the posted yacc. If you really > want a pd yacc, "bison" is available from the Gnu project, and you > won't be vulnerable to a suit. Bison is unfortunately not public domain but includes the rather complicated copyright of the Free Software Foundation. The properties of this copyright are still being analyzed. Several people have claimed that a version of yacc appeared on a DECUS tape of public-domain software. Tomorrow I will look through our DECUS tapes to try to confirm this. But if I find yacc source and it "looks" like AT&T code, does that mean it is proprietary? Isn't another possible explanation that a copy was distributed before AT&T became interested in making unix proprietary? Can AT&T "take back" such a distribution? > There has already been the case of a site removing itself from the > net because someone at that site posted proprietary code. > > Someone could post the entire Unix source to the net. It would then > be in the public domain. But AT&T would be entitled to recover > tens of millions of dollars in damages to everyone responsible, and > nontechnical people would decide who's responsible. Everyone on the > net might be required to ante up. It's scary to think about. I somehow doubt that it would be in the public domain. But if it would, then yacc is, right? Could someone who knows the "legal" answers to these questions comment? How could everyone on the net be required to "ante up?" How do you prove that any individual is a net reader, or even a poster? (Obviously, I'm not writing this; it was forged by some evil hacker...) Full unix sources are available via anonymous ftp from many sites. Does this make them public domain? Does this make all users of the internet subject to legal action should anyone take advantage of them? Please, never be scared to think! I don't really want to play devil's advocate, but everyone else seems to take the approach of treating much more than need be as proprietary and pretending incidents like this one haven't happened rather that understaning the true consequences. And yes, I do believe in intelectual property rights. But I want to understand how they work, and, if it turns out that they work only for entities powerful enough to threaten an entire population with vague legal action, then I want to gripe. Dan Lanciani ddl@harvard.*
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!rutgers!mit-eddie!bu-cs!tower From: to...@bu-cs.UUCP Newsgroups: comp.sources.d Subject: Re: Public Domain Yacc (Important) Message-ID: <3975@bu-cs.BU.EDU> Date: Fri, 6-Feb-87 13:22:52 EST Article-I.D.: bu-cs.3975 Posted: Fri Feb 6 13:22:52 1987 Date-Received: Sat, 7-Feb-87 19:45:41 EST References: <142@ems.UUCP> <1170@husc6.UUCP> <867@epimass.UUCP> Reply-To: to...@bu-cs.UUCP (Leonard H. Tower Jr.) Distribution: world Organization: Boston Univ. CS Dept. Lines: 16 Keywords: bison gnu software freedom Summary: How to get GNU software In article <8...@epimass.UUCP> jb...@epimass.UUCP (Joe Buck) writes: ... Well, they could conceivably sue Mark Colburn, the backbone, every news site, or whatever. One big lawsuit and Usenet is gone. I recommend that everyone get rid of the posted yacc. If you really want a pd yacc, "bison" is available from the Gnu project, and you won't be vulnerable to a suit. - Joe Buck {hplabs,ihnp4,sun,ames}!oliveb!epimass!jbuck HASA (A,S) Entropic Processing, Inc., Cupertino, California If you want information on how to obtain bison and other GNU software, send an e-mail request to Internet address: g...@prep.ai.mit.edu
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!rutgers!mit-eddie!bacchus!husc6!ddl From: d...@husc6.UUCP Newsgroups: comp.sources.d Subject: Re: Public Domain (?) Yacc (Important) [I TOLD the NET SO!!] Message-ID: <1186@husc6.UUCP> Date: Sat, 7-Feb-87 00:40:28 EST Article-I.D.: husc6.1186 Posted: Sat Feb 7 00:40:28 1987 Date-Received: Sun, 8-Feb-87 04:27:09 EST References: <142@ems.UUCP> <464@yetti.UUCP> Distribution: world Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge MA Lines: 45 In article <4...@yetti.UUCP>, o...@yetti.UUCP (Ozan Yigit) writes: > The discussion of this so-called PD Yacc comes and goes thru > this net, and *every time*, until I am blue in the face, I remind > people that it is *the* UNIX yacc, broken to little pieces so > that it could compile under DECUS C compiler. I saw this program > eons ago, on an RSX-11 tape. Some ignorabilis decided to submit > it to DECUS, and it did not occur to DECUS to check. [Same thing > happened with EMPIRE sources, but DECUS got a rap from the author, > and withdrew the sources.] Good, this confirms what I thought. (In one sense.) And it is still on the DECUS tape. And it is sold. And it is available to any individual who wants it. And it has (and had) no copyright notice. How can anyone claim that this is anything but public domain? How can it possibly be proprietary? Why didn't AT&T prosecute the person who allowed the source to leak? > Therefore, in order to preserve the legal integrity of the net, *it is > crucial that this YACC be gotten rid of*, unless you enjoy risking > your company, yourself and the net.. The legal "integrity" of the net??? That must be the responsibility to protect AT&T's interests. Can't AT&T do that by itself? > There is, however, one important point: Unless a copyright violation > is challenged, copyrights may be lost. Something for AT&T to think > about - someone *sells* this bloody thing !!. Since there was no copyright, there is no copyright to be lost. I realize a work can be considered copyright without a notice, but only until it is distributed. AT&T relies on the proprietary nature of the code to protect it. They have not taken steps to protect that status. And if anyone has the means to take such steps, surely AT&T does. Maybe the company that sells yacc and lex knows something we don't. Maybe they know that yacc has become public domain. Maybe all of unix has become public domain and everyone is afraid to admit it :-) > But than again, I said all of this before... But can someone who actually understands the *legal* (not moral) aspects of this please, please comment? The notion of publically available information being proprietary is disconcerting. Dan Lanciani ddl@harvard.*
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!rutgers!brl-adm!seismo!mcnc!gatech!gitpyr!thomps From: tho...@gitpyr.UUCP Newsgroups: comp.sources.d Subject: Re: Public Domain (?) Yacc (Important) [I TOLD the NET SO!!] Message-ID: <3056@gitpyr.gatech.EDU> Date: Sat, 7-Feb-87 16:08:28 EST Article-I.D.: gitpyr.3056 Posted: Sat Feb 7 16:08:28 1987 Date-Received: Sun, 8-Feb-87 07:42:58 EST References: <142@ems.UUCP> <464@yetti.UUCP> <1186@husc6.UUCP> Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Lines: 38 In article <1...@husc6.UUCP>, d...@husc6.UUCP (Dan Lanciani) writes: > > > Therefore, in order to preserve the legal integrity of the net, *it is > > crucial that this YACC be gotten rid of*, unless you enjoy risking > > your company, yourself and the net.. > > The legal "integrity" of the net??? That must be the responsibility > to protect AT&T's interests. Can't AT&T do that by itself? Those of us who would like to see the net continue to exist need to protect the legal integrity of the net. If AT&T decided to legally challenge a number of major backbone sites the net might quickly cease to exist. Most would probably simply drop the net like hot potato. > >They have not taken steps to protect that status. And if > anyone has the means to take such steps, surely AT&T does. Maybe the company > that sells yacc and lex knows something we don't. Maybe they know that > yacc has become public domain. Maybe all of unix has become public domain > and everyone is afraid to admit it :-) On what basis to you state that they have not taken steps to protect it. Just because someone mahages to rip off proprietary data does not mean that the company now loses all rights to the proprietary data. In fact, I believe that any entity which knowingly makes use of such data is subject to potential legal and civil penalties. I seem to recall some Japanese companies settling out of court with IBM for a significant amount of money based on theft of proprietary information. Remember that proprietary information is most often lost through employee theft. Finally, you cannot make a program public domain by placing in the public domain if you don't have a legal right to do so. -- Ken Thompson Phone : (404) 894-7089 Georgia Tech Research Institute Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!thomps
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!rutgers!husc6!ddl From: d...@husc6.UUCP Newsgroups: comp.sources.d Subject: Re: Public Domain (?) Yacc (Important) [I TOLD the NET SO!!] Message-ID: <1191@husc6.UUCP> Date: Sun, 8-Feb-87 18:46:16 EST Article-I.D.: husc6.1191 Posted: Sun Feb 8 18:46:16 1987 Date-Received: Tue, 10-Feb-87 05:04:54 EST References: <142@ems.UUCP> <464@yetti.UUCP> <1186@husc6.UUCP> <3056@gitpyr.gatech.EDU> Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge MA Lines: 58 In article <3...@gitpyr.gatech.EDU>, tho...@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Ken Thompson) writes: > Those of us who would like to see the net continue to exist need to > protect the legal integrity of the net. If AT&T decided to legally > challenge a number of major backbone sites the net might quickly cease > to exist. Most would probably simply drop the net like hot potato. Are you sure this is the "legal integrity" of the net and not the AT&T-compatibility of the net? I suspect that if I decided to legally challenge the net because of something I thought was stolen from me then nobody would even notice. This is because I can't aford a good (set of) lawyer(s). Does might make right? In other words, if the reason for not doing X is that X is illegal, and even that the law will punish you for doing X, then that is reasonable. On the other hand, if the reason for not doing X is that X's owner can sue you out of existence, then the "law" is strongly biased in favor of might. Note that I am *not* talking about the morality of stealing software; this is a completely different issue. > On what basis to you state that they have not taken steps to protect it. > Just because someone mahages to rip off proprietary data does not mean > that the company now loses all rights to the proprietary data. In fact, > I believe that any entity which knowingly makes use of such data is > subject to potential legal and civil penalties. I seem to recall some > Japanese companies settling out of court with IBM for a significant > amount of money based on theft of proprietary information. Well, in fact, that's the question. If the public knows your proprietary information, and you didn't protect it in any other way, then how can it still be proprietary? Proprietary implies secret. The key words in your IBM example are "settling out of court." Like AT&T, IBM has the power to intimidate. No matter how legally right you are, you probably can't aford to go to court against IBM or AT&T (or Apple...). This kind of protection works only for large comapnies; not for individuals. > Remember that proprietary information is most often lost through employee > theft. Yes, that's what I always thought. I also thought that such employees were the ones liable for the theft. (For that matter, they should be the only ones capable of the theft since the information was supposedly proprieatry.) Consider the problem you create by claiming that public information can be proprietary. In order to verify the status of any work you must ask a potentially unlimitted number of authors if it really belongs to them. Beyond the unreasonable resources that it would take to acomplish this, you must "trust" all the responses you get since you are not allowed to "see" the proprietary material of those authors. Public domain status would effectively vanish because any entity that made proprietary changes to public code could easilly tell you that the code belonged to it. Now, even if you insist that all of this is reasonable, about the best you could ask for the research phase is a public discussion in which a potential author should come forward and claim rights to "his" work. We have been having just such a discussion and AT&T hasn't claimed yacc. Why are so many people outside of AT&T so anxious to do so for it? Dan Lanciani ddl@harvard.*
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbatt!gatech!gitpyr!thomps From: tho...@gitpyr.UUCP Newsgroups: comp.sources.d Subject: Re: Public Domain (?) Yacc (Important) [I TOLD the NET SO!!] Message-ID: <3066@gitpyr.gatech.EDU> Date: Mon, 9-Feb-87 20:40:28 EST Article-I.D.: gitpyr.3066 Posted: Mon Feb 9 20:40:28 1987 Date-Received: Tue, 10-Feb-87 18:37:42 EST References: <142@ems.UUCP> <464@yetti.UUCP> <1186@husc6.UUCP> <1191@husc6.UUCP> Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Lines: 44 Summary: Don't kill the net on principle In article <1...@husc6.UUCP>, d...@husc6.UUCP (Dan Lanciani) writes: > In article <3...@gitpyr.gatech.EDU>, tho...@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Ken Thompson) writes: > > Those of us who would like to see the net continue to exist need to > > protect the legal integrity of the net. If AT&T decided to legally > > challenge a number of major backbone sites the net might quickly cease > > to exist. Most would probably simply drop the net like hot potato. > > Are you sure this is the "legal integrity" of the net and not > the AT&T-compatibility of the net? I suspect that if I decided to legally > challenge the net because of something I thought was stolen from me then > nobody would even notice. This is because I can't aford a good (set of) > lawyer(s). Does might make right? In other words, if the reason for not > doing X is that X is illegal, and even that the law will punish you for > doing X, then that is reasonable. On the other hand, if the reason for > not doing X is that X's owner can sue you out of existence, then the "law" > is strongly biased in favor of might. Note that I am *not* talking about > the morality of stealing software; this is a completely different issue. > I personally do not want to endanger the net over a questionable issue. I don't know who is right and who is wrong in this case legally. My concern is that I would rather see the code assumed to be proprietary and kept off the net until proven otherwise because I still feel the net is vuknerable to lawsuits and I don't want it to disappear over what appears to be a questionable case anyway judging by the discussion. I have no desire to either protect or harm AT&T. I am more concerned about protecting the net. Georgia Tech is a backbone site and am sure if threatened with a major lawsuit over something to do with the net they would drop it like a hot potato. It would have nothing to do with intimidation. It would simply be a case that the powers that be (In this case probably the Ga, University System Board of regents) wouldn't think the net worth fighting a major lawsuit for regardless of right or wrong. You may be correct that no one would take you seriously if you threatened to sue because unfortunately lawsuits take a lot of money and your ability to sustain a suit would probably be doubted. and no -- Ken Thompson (No not that Ken Thompson) Georgia Tech Research Institute Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!thomps
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!rutgers!mit-eddie!bu-cs!tower From: to...@bu-cs.UUCP Newsgroups: comp.sources.d Subject: Re: Public Domain Yacc (Important) Message-ID: <4145@bu-cs.BU.EDU> Date: Thu, 12-Feb-87 11:58:40 EST Article-I.D.: bu-cs.4145 Posted: Thu Feb 12 11:58:40 1987 Date-Received: Fri, 13-Feb-87 06:23:28 EST References: <142@ems.UUCP> <1170@husc6.UUCP> <867@epimass.UUCP> <1179@husc6.UUCP> Reply-To: to...@prep.ai.mit.edu Distribution: world Organization: Distributed Systems Group, Boston University, 111 Cummington Street, Boston, MA 02215, USA +1 (617) 353-2780 Lines: 38 Summary: bison availability and copyright Home: 36 Porter Street, Somerville, MA 02143, USA +1 (617) 623-7739 Keywords: gnu fsf software freedom In article <1...@husc6.UUCP> d...@husc6.UUCP (Dan Lanciani) writes: > In article <8...@epimass.UUCP>, jb...@epimass.UUCP (Joe Buck) writes: > > ... If you really > > want a pd yacc, "bison" is available from the Gnu project, and you > > won't be vulnerable to a suit. Information on obtaining bison and other GNU software is available from: Internet: g...@prep.ai.mit.edu UUCP: ..!mit-eddie!mit-prep!gnu > Bison is unfortunately not public domain but includes the rather > complicated copyright of the Free Software Foundation. ... The copyright is simple, it's the license that a few find complicated. One simply has to provide source code with any distribution of software based on GNU software. Things only get complicated when one wishes to not distribute source. I find the requirement to distribute source fortunate, the public will ALWAYS have access to the software. > The properties > of this copyright are still being analyzed. Specifically, by whom?? ;-} --------------------------------------------------------------------- Fair Notices: 1) I help the Free Software Foundation. 2) The above is my own statement. -- Len Tower, Distributed Systems Group, Boston University, 111 Cummington Street, Boston, MA 02215, USA +1 (617) 353-2780 Home: 36 Porter Street, Somerville, MA 02143, USA +1 (617) 623-7739 UUCP: {}!harvard!bu-cs!tower INTERNET: to...@bu-cs.bu.edu