Path: gmd.de!urmel.informatik.rwth-aachen.de! newsserver.rrzn.uni-hannover.de!hrz-ws11.hrz.uni-kassel.de! news.th-darmstadt.de!math.fu-berlin.de!zib-berlin.de!netmbx.de! Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!paladin.american.edu! darwin.sura.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!igor.rutgers.edu!geneva.rutgers.edu! hedrick From: hedr...@geneva.rutgers.edu (Charles Hedrick) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc Subject: Re: Linux vs. NetBSD Message-ID: <Jan.23.21.30.58.1994.1280@geneva.rutgers.edu> Date: 24 Jan 94 02:30:59 GMT References: <2hosie$4ts@homea.ensta.fr> <2hv1h9$gt9@olivaw.apanix.apana.org.au> <RV.94Jan23194254@lego.cs.brown.edu> Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J. Lines: 63 r...@cs.brown.edu (rodrigo vanegas) writes: >But BSD source is free isn't it? Why don't the linux network code >developers simply copy it out? I think the real answer is that it's more fun to write a new implementation. However there are also a couple of rational justifications: - the BSD code is now fairly old. Some people have claimed that a new implementation could get better performance, particularly in a Linux environment. (There are some differences in the kernels that may affect how one would interface networking code to it.) - there is still a suit in progress covering the free BSD code. While I am reasonably sure that the networking portion of the code is not at risk, courts have in the past made decisions that I consider irrational. It's not entirely unreasonable (though perhaps it is bordering on paranoia) for the community to want an alternative to the BSD code. Note also that you can't just take the BSD modules and insert them into the kernel. Some adaptation would be necessary to make them fit into the Linux kernel. Whether that adaptation would be more or less work than fixing the existing Linux networking code is a matter of debate. I personally think that neither of the reasons above is very strong. Berkeley has put an incredible amount of work into design and performance, and in order to do better you'd at least have to start by understanding their work. (I say this despite the fact that I get roughly twice the throughput for FTP's involving Linux than netBSD. However it's hard to believe that this is a basic problem with the BSD code. Its basic capabilities are well known from other ports. In particular, it can saturate an Ethernet with a single TCP connection using less processing power than our Linux systems have.) The networking portion of BSD had been distributed widely well before the suit, and as I understand it ATT had agreed that that portion of the code was OK to distribution. So I don't think there's any real legal issue. The real answer is more practical: no one has done the necessary work. There was actually a port of the netBSD networking code into Linux. I tried it briefly. I thought it was very promising. However there were enough loose ends that the Linux code worked better. I think the community would have been better off to clean up that port than do something new. However the direction of Linux is determined by what people are willing to put time into. If everybody working on the networking code is more interested in working on something new, it doesn't matter if that makes sense or not -- 1,000,000 people could want a BSD port, but if they're not willing to put their coding where their mouth is, it doesn't make any difference. I don't know what Linus would do if different people sent him both a new TCP implementation and a fully functional port of the BSD code. He might be inclined to stick with the GPL'ed code, or he might not. But he hasn't been presented with that choice yet. I believe the current Linux TCP can be made solid. Since I don't have time to do my own TCP for Linux, that's what I working on. And I have just enough residual paranoia about the legal system that I'm not sure that's a bad thing. I can make excellent arguments that no possible outcome of the suit could interfere with distribution of the BSD network code, but lawyers just don't think like normal human beings.
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc Path: gmd.de!xlink.net!zib-berlin.de!netmbx.de!Germany.EU.net!EU.net! howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!cf-cm!cybaswan!iiitac From: iii...@swan.pyr (Alan Cox) Subject: Re: Linux vs. NetBSD Message-ID: <1994Jan24.182958.7042@swan.pyr> Organization: Swansea University College References: <2hosie$4ts@homea.ensta.fr> <2hv1h9$gt9@olivaw.apanix.apana.org.au> <RV.94Jan23194254@lego.cs.brown.edu> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 18:29:58 GMT Lines: 13 In article <RV.94Jan23194...@lego.cs.brown.edu> r...@cs.brown.edu (rodrigo vanegas) writes: >But BSD source is free isn't it? Why don't the linux network code >developers simply copy it out? Because AT&T appeared to have different potential opinions, and because we had a chance to do better. Primarily though because Ross Biro sat down and started writing a TCP/IP stack. At the end of the day we will have a better network environment than generic BSD NET-2 and it will be GPL protected. Alan iii...@pyr.swan.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc Path: gmd.de!newsserver.jvnc.net!darwin.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net! vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!think.com!spdcc!merk!rmkhome!rmk From: r...@rmkhome.com (Rick Kelly) Subject: Re: Linux vs. NetBSD Organization: The Man With Ten Cats References: <2hosie$4ts@homea.ensta.fr> <2hv1h9$gt9@olivaw.apanix.apana.org.au> <RV.94Jan23194254@lego.cs.brown.edu> <1994Jan24.182958.7042@swan.pyr> Message-ID: <9401302227.29@rmkhome.com> Reply-To: r...@rmkhome.com (Rick Kelly) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 03:40:56 GMT Lines: 21 Alan Cox (iii...@swan.pyr) wrote: : In article <RV.94Jan23194...@lego.cs.brown.edu> r...@cs.brown.edu (rodrigo vanegas) writes: : >But BSD source is free isn't it? Why don't the linux network code : >developers simply copy it out? : > : Because AT&T appeared to have different potential opinions, and because we : had a chance to do better. Primarily though because Ross Biro sat down and : started writing a TCP/IP stack. At the end of the day we will have a better : network environment than generic BSD NET-2 and it will be GPL protected. Just remember, "better" is subjective. If you are going to reinvent the wheel, just be ready to test it against the approximately 300+ versions of TCP/IP, NIS, and NFS that are out there now. I deal with this everyday. It's a swamp. -- Rick Kelly r...@rmkhome.com r...@bedford.progress.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc Path: gmd.de!newsserver.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet! cf-cm!cybaswan!iiitac From: iii...@swan.pyr (Alan Cox) Subject: Re: Linux vs. NetBSD Message-ID: <1994Feb1.170209.5016@swan.pyr> Organization: Swansea University College References: <RV.94Jan23194254@lego.cs.brown.edu> <1994Jan24.182958.7042@swan.pyr> <9401302227.29@rmkhome.com> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 17:02:09 GMT Lines: 23 In article <9401302227...@rmkhome.com> r...@rmkhome.com (Rick Kelly) writes: >If you are going to reinvent the wheel, just be ready to test it against >the approximately 300+ versions of TCP/IP, NIS, and NFS that are out there >now. People already have been testing it. One thing Linux has is an army of alpha testers. Mostly its now obscure issues like NCSA telnet with its mss > window. Rik Faith has already done a lot to the NFS side to cope with the numerous Sun and other bugs. >I deal with this everyday. It's a swamp. Yep.. but we are still wading onwards and have no intention of stopping. I've traced several bugs to broken tcp stacks now - but almost every bug we've found has been a Linux one normally an 'assumption'. Anyway if we wanted an alternative networking layer something like the Mach net server code would bne much more appropriate than the early 80's mentatlity of BSD. The BSD code isn't wonderful by design - its pretty good by design and better than the current legacies imbedded in Linux NET2[DE]. It's more reliable through testing - nothing else. Alan