[light-theme] please centre window title and order window controls
Marián Bača (majoobaca) [ https://launchpad.net/~majoobaca ]
March 5, 2010
Binary package hint: light-themes
Please centre window title like in human theme and also order window controls in classic order(minimize, maximize close).
Thanks, Majo
Chris Johnston (chrisjohnston) [ https://launchpad.net/~chrisjohnston ]
March 5, 2010
Thanks for reporting this bug and any supporting documentation. Since this bug has enough information provided for a developer to begin work, I'm going to mark it as confirmed and let them handle it from here. Thanks for taking the time to make Ubuntu better!
James P. Carter (jpcarter) [ https://launchpad.net/~jpcarter ]
March 5, 2010
Also do you think we could move the window buttons back to the upper right instead of the upper left over the File / Edit /Etc...
Chris Johnston (chrisjohnston)
March 6, 2010
James, that would need to be in a second bug...
Now with the change of the window control buttons, I'm guessing that the title is meant to be this way..
Chris Johnston (chrisjohnston)
March 6, 2010
After seeing this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand#New%20GtkThemes
I am going to mark this bug invalid.
Mitch Towner (kermiac) [ https://launchpad.net/~kermiac ]
March 9, 2010
summary:
- [light-theme] please centre window title and order window controls
+ [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
+ "menu:minimize,maximize,close"
Yann (lostec) [ https://launchpad.net/~lostec ]
March 10, 2010
Try to assign this to canonical desktop... Because current answers really look like bad jokes!
Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl) [ https://launchpad.net/~sabdfl ]
March 10, 2010
assignee None
Yann, please do not assign bugs to someone unless you are responsible for their tasking. You can assign a bug to yourself, or someone who works for you, or a team or person in a team that you lead in Ubuntu. But assigning a bug to someone who is NOT in that list is a bit like me sending you an invoice for the time it has taken to write this email ;-)
Mark
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to "menu:minimize, maximize, close"
Mark Shuttleworth
March 10, 2010
The issue is not a bug, it's a difference of opinion on what is the best result.
We may change it, or we may hold it.
Sam Townsend (stownsend42)
March 15, 2010
I have totally fixed this problem in my PPA: https://launchpad.net/~stownsend42/+archive/light-themes
Make sure you log out and then log back in after installing my version of light-themes.
After that, your interface should look like this: http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/8910/screenshotxchatsomepers.png
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to "menu:minimize, maximize, close"
Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl) [ https://launchpad.net/~stownsend42 ]
March 15, 2010
Sam, thanks for making the PPA, and I encourage folks who prefer that layout to use it, or to follow the instructions for setting the gconf preference manually. It's great that you can do that.
The default position of the window controls will remain the left, throughout beta1. We're interested in data which could influence the ultimate decision. There are good reasons both for the change, and against them, and ultimately the position will be decided based on what we want to achieve over time.
Moving everything to the left opens up the space on the right nicely, and I would like to experiment in 10.10 with some innovative options there. It's much easier to do that if we make this change now. I appreciate that it's an emotive subject, and apologise for the fact that I haven't been responding in detail to every comment - I'm busy moving house this week. But the design team is well aware of the controversy, your (polite) comments and more importantly *data* are very welcome and will help make the best decision.
When we have a celebrity bug report like this, it's a real exercise for our values of communication, civility, and ubuntu. Thank you to those who have pointed to the code of conduct when things get heated. And thanks even more to those who FELT heated but didn't let it show :-)
Mark
Pablo Quirós (polmac1985) [ https://launchpad.net/~polmac1985 ]
March 15, 2010
"Moving everything to the left opens up the space on the right nicely, and I would like to experiment in 10.10 with some innovative options there. It's much easier to do that if we make this change now."
It'd have been nice if this comment had been made some time ago, together with a deep reasoning on the concrete changes that are in mind.
We are supposed to be a community, we all use Ubuntu and contribute to it, and we deserve some respect regarding these kind of decisions. We all make Ubuntu together, or is it a big lie? If you want to tell us that we are all part of it, we want information, and we want our opinion to be decisive.
I'm talking about polls where only 10% of the people wants this change. And I'm talking about the secrecy on the reasons and the future UI plans for Ubuntu, which will deeply affect all of us. We want to take part of it, and we are excluded, as we were in the new branding design. I've seen lots of proposals for new brandings and themes over these years (been using ubuntu since Warty indeed), some of them really good, and most of them going nowhere. There is talent in the community. But someone decided then that it wasn't what we needed, that we needed no change. And now, someone has decided that it is the moment, now we need a change, but without our contribution, without our opinion. Without us.
If we are working together, if this is *really* a community, there are a few things wrong here.
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to "menu:minimize, maximize, close"
Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)
March 17, 2010
On 15/03/10 23:42, Pablo Quirós wrote:
> It'd have been nice if this comment had been made some time ago,
> together with a deep reasoning on the concrete changes that are in mind.
>
> We are supposed to be a community, we all use Ubuntu and contribute to
> it, and we deserve some respect regarding these kind of decisions. We
> all make Ubuntu together, or is it a big lie?
We all make Ubuntu, but we do not all make all of it. In other words, we delegate well. We have a kernel team, and they make kernel decisions. You don't get to make kernel decisions unless you're in that kernel team. You can file bugs and comment, and engage, but you don't get to second-guess their decisions. We have a security team. They get to make decisions about security. You don't get to see a lot of what they see unless you're on that team. We have processes to help make sure we're doing a good job of delegation, but being an open community is not the same as saying everybody has a say in everything.
This is a difference between Ubuntu and several other community distributions. It may feel less democratic, but it's more meritocratic, and most importantly it means (a) we should have the best people making any given decision, and (b) it's worth investing your time to become the best person to make certain decisions, because you should have that competence recognised and rewarded with the freedom to make hard decisions and not get second-guessed all the time.
It's fair comment that this was a big change, and landed without warning. There aren't any good reasons for that, but it's also true that no amount of warning would produce consensus about a decision like this.
> If you want to tell us
> that we are all part of it, we want information, and we want our opinion
> to be decisive.
>
No. This is not a democracy. Good feedback, good data, are welcome. But we are not voting on design decisions.
Mark
Pablo Quirós (polmac1985)
March 18, 2010
"We all make Ubuntu, but we do not all make all of it. In other words, we
delegate well. We have a kernel team, and they make kernel decisions.
You don't get to make kernel decisions unless you're in that kernel
team. You can file bugs and comment, and engage, but you don't get to
second-guess their decisions. We have a security team. They get to make
decisions about security. You don't get to see a lot of what they see
unless you're on that team. We have processes to help make sure we're
doing a good job of delegation, but being an open community is not the
same as saying everybody has a say in everything."
First of all, thank you to take the time to answer personally. I'm sure lots of people, including me, appreciates that.
Don't take me wrong, I think a meritocracy is a good way of doing things, but, as you say, there have to be processes to make sure the delegated job is properly done -- and there's where the community has a part. In the end, it is us, users, who judge wether something is good or bad. This is the same in any bussiness: consumers, in the end, decide. And if there is a majority of users, or consumers, who thinks something is wrong, then the delegation you where talking about is not working properly.
The new design team has made really good changes to the system, and the new branding is really good. That said, I think they've shown some inexperience. A good design team would have done 1) a good reasoning on the need for this change. A basic rule of usability is to be easy and predictable; when you are going to change something like this, you have to be sure that it is *really* for the better. 2) Usability tests. As I said, it's a big change with a great impact, and you shouldn't just "try" something, you have to experiment with real users and good tests, to gets sure the decision is the best. 3) Get the opinions of the final user. In the end, the change is something to make his life better. If he doesn't like it, it has no sense at all.
If you accept an advise, I think what you are lacking in the design team is an usability expert... or maybe there is? the point is that the design team should take usability more into account.
I've read someone who, regarding this matter, said that he is tired of designers telling him how he should use his computer. And he is right. I think you are wrong in one thing: you say this is not a democracy, but, in the end, it is. Design is a democracy. If users don't like a design, if they are unhappy with it, or it makes their life worse, it has no sense at all. Design is for users, and if they don't like it, it's failing.
And I'd like to comment on other issue as well: openness. You said that only the teams responsible for something have all the information on that matter; I don't see the reason, and it goes strongly about my sense of a community. Openness is good for everyone; it's one of the strengths of free software, and one of the pilars of a community. If reasoning of the decisions taken is closed, and plans for the future are hidden, the community is weakened and it will be much more difficult for us to feel part of the project. Lots of communities, and most of the information in this very community, is opened to access by everyone, and it works well this way. There's no reason to hide anything... and there is a risk we won't feel part of this project anymore. Just users. And it changes everything.
Thanks for your time, and congratulations, as Lucid might be one of the best releases ever for what I've seen to the moment.
Pablo
Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)
March 18, 2010
On 18/03/10 14:31, Pablo Quirós wrote:
> I've read someone who, regarding this matter, said that he is tired of
> designers telling him how he should use his computer. And he is right. I
> think you are wrong in one thing: you say this is not a democracy, but,
> in the end, it is. Design is a democracy. If users don't like a design,
> if they are unhappy with it, or it makes their life worse, it has no
> sense at all. Design is for users, and if they don't like it, it's
> failing.
>
Yes, design is a democracy in the sense that users vote with their feet - they choose the products that work well for them. If we fail badly with this, or any other piece, they will go somewhere else, and we lose.
Look, I understand this is risky. In my judgment, it's worth the risk. Being able to tackle risky things is one of the things that gives us the chance to catch up to the big guys, and beat them. That doesn't mean we should be cavalier, but I'm not going to shy away from an opportunity to do something much better now just because Microsoft did something a particular way 20 years ago.
Mark
bigbrovar (bigbrovar) [ https://launchpad.net/~bigbrovar ]
March 18, 2010
@ Mark Shuttleworth I think what @Pablo Quirós meant was that the aim of design and usability is to make the life of the user easier, to improve their workflow hence their productivity. If the design fails to achieve this (and only the user can tell) then that design has failed and reason be restored.
>Yes, design is a democracy in the sense that users vote with their feet
>they choose the products that work well for them. If we fail badly
>with this, or any other piece, they will go somewhere else, and we lose
Are you saying that those who think that the new design of windows button placement does not suit them, should take a walk and find another distro? You might ask how can we know if users are happy with this design choice without first trying it and see from their feedbacks if it helped make their lives easier? True but you really don't want to perform such a test on an LTS which is the version of Ubuntu that is adopted by enterprise users. Even though I feel this change is a solution looking for a problem. Still I am not against giving it a try in one of the in between LTS releases and using the feedback generated as input on whether such a move would benefit the user or not.
>Look, I understand this is risky. In my judgment, it's worth the risk.
Serious Mark you really think making this risky decisions for an LTS release is worth it? seriously?
>Being able to tackle risky things is one of the things that gives us the
>chance to catch up to the big guys, and beat them.
One way to catch the big boys is ask what their secret is. and one of it is consistency. Windows as pretty much maintained the same look since windows 95, they just added more polish and more superlatives but its essentially the same start-menu, windows management buttons, the same task-manager hence a user knows what to expect from a newer version of windows. This is one of the reason why windows is very popular many people know what to expect and how to find their way around. Even with all its flaws Microsoft or Apple wont wake up one morning and decide their were going to change the location of their window button placement its just not something you want to do for a serious OS. You dont experiment too much with a serious OS. look at redhat or Sled the big players in the linux desktop They don't experiment with their users. They try to keep things consistent I am not saying Ubuntu should be that conservative or enterprise focussed, we can always maintain a balance.. keep the desktop consistent and the underthehood stuffs should do the magic design thats and design and usability decisions should really improve the usability and workflow of users. and not force them to have to relearn how to use their desktop. Consistency is the biggest problem of free desktop we always move the post to many times.
Whatever decision the usability team makes the deciding factor is how the user reacts to its, whether its makes their usage of ubuntu easier or adds to their problem. You raised the issue of the Kernel team (among other teams) If they make a radical change to the Ubuntu kernel which impacts negatively on the user. You would get the same backlash you are getting now. The reason why people are not poking too much into their business is because for most they are doing their work fine. Ubuntu and the development process is (or should be) actually democratic if not in voting but in checks and balancing. The usability team come up with a design. If it doesn't work for the user they would receive a backlash (such as this) hence the community is a check to bring the design team back down to earth (no pun intended) and to face the reality of everyday computer usage something which is quite beyond the drawing board. I am not against taking risk or trying something new. I just feel for an LTS things should be kept quite conservative.
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to "menu:minimize, maximize, close"
Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)
March 18, 2010
On 18/03/10 17:36, bigbrovar wrote:
> Are you saying that those who think that the new design of windows
> button placement does not suit them, should take a walk and find
> another distro?
No. I'd rather they joined this thread and the ayatana list and discussed options and ideas there. I wasn't saying "if you don't like it, take a hike", I was acknowledging Pablo's point that ultimately users *do* vote, by choosing products that work best for them.
> You might ask how can we know if users are happy with this design
> choice without first trying it and see from their feedbacks if it
> helped make their lives easier?
That's very hard to guage from the initial reaction. There have been a lot of people who said, in effect, "EEEK CHANGE". There have been others who said "I got used to it and haven't seen any major problems that I was worried about, like accidentally closing apps". It would be useful to get data. A mailing list or bug thread isn't data, though it's still useful.
> True but you really don't want to perform such a test on an LTS which
> is the version of Ubuntu that is adopted by enterprise users. Even
> though I feel this change is a solution looking for a problem. Still I
> am not against giving it a try in one of the in between LTS releases
> and using the feedback generated as input on whether such a move would
> benefit the user or not.
The fact that this is an LTS cuts both ways. If I'm confident that 10.10, 11.04 and future releases will have the controls on the left, it makes even more sense to do it now (because the LTS will then not look dated compared to newer releases). As a precedent, we shipped Firefox 3.0*beta* for 8.04 LTS, which caused an uproar but was the right decision given that 2.0 was nearing its end of life at the time.
>> Look, I understand this is risky. In my judgment, it's worth the risk.
>>
> Serious Mark you really think making this risky decisions for an LTS release is
worth it? seriously?
>
Yes, very much.
> Consistency is the biggest problem of free desktop we always move the
> post to many times.
Much as it undermines my position, I have to agree.
Mark
mangwills (mangwills) [ https://launchpad.net/~mangwills ]
March 19, 2010
My mouse cursor usually hovers around the right side of windows because the vertical scroll bars are on the right. Also, since I read left-to-right, it seems easier to interact with windows at the right side.
I usually close, minimize, or maximize windows and work with menus using the keyboard, so I think I can get used to a "left-handed" window controls.
Mr. X (obvio-capitao) [ https://launchpad.net/~obvio-capitao ]
March 19, 2010
> My mouse cursor usually hovers around the right side
> of windows because the vertical scroll bars are on the
> right. Also, since I read left-to-right, it seems easier to
> interact with windows at the right side.
That's a very good point.
There's no sense moving the min/max/close buttons to the left, if the scroll bars are still in the right.
Perhaps the UI designers were trying to open space for the notifications? A better solution would be to display the notifications in the bottom right.
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to "menu:minimize, maximize, close"
Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)
March 19, 2010
On 19/03/10 10:53, Mr. X wrote:
>> My mouse cursor usually hovers around the right side
>> of windows because the vertical scroll bars are on the
>> right. Also, since I read left-to-right, it seems easier to
>> interact with windows at the right side.
>>
> That's a very good point.
>
> There's no sense moving the min/max/close buttons to the left, if the
> scroll bars are still in the right.
>
Our design roadmap calls for us to reduce the visibility of scrollbars, and emphasise:
- touch scrolling
- scrollwheels
Most people don't scroll with the scrollbar any more. The use the scrollbar to gauge "how much fo the document am I seeing".
> Perhaps the UI designers were trying to open space for the
> notifications? A better solution would be to display the notifications
> in the bottom right.
>
No, notifications were not the primary driver. Moving the window controls to the left does ease the interaction with the notifications, though.
Mark
Kasimir Gabert (kasimir-g) [ https://launchpad.net/~kasimir-g ]
March 23, 2010
Mark: Stating that these design decisions are good because ``the people who made them are good'' is some pretty poor logic---an appeal to authority if I'm not mistaken. I think the hundreds of upset people would be better convinced if you presented some sort of an explanation as to why this design decision was made, or delegated this decision out to whichever good person made the decision. If there's no way of convincing people it is good, then there is something seriously wrong.
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)
March 24, 2010
On 23/03/10 13:36, Kasimir Gabert wrote:
> Mark: Stating that these design decisions are good because ``the people
> who made them are good'' is some pretty poor logic---an appeal to
> authority if I'm not mistaken.
I didn't say the decision is good because the people are good. I am fairly quick to admit my own fallibility, and under pressure might even admit the fallibility of my colleagues too. It's not yet clear whether this decision will stand the test of time, or not.
However, I did say that:
- I and others appreciate the feedback and the passion
- we have a mandate to make decisions of this nature
- we have reason to pursue this change, and are running it through the beta to evaluate
it
- we know it's controversial. more controversy doesn't help, data might
- if we think this will stick for two years or more, doing it now makes more sense
than less
We've made other decisions in the past that were controversial. The current layout of the standard GNOME desktop, for example, was quite controversial at the time. Till GNOME and then other distros adopted it. Some of those decisions missed the mark, some stuck.
Mark
aysiu (ubuntubugzilla-psychocats) [ https://launchpad.net/~ubuntubugzilla-psychocats ]
March 25, 2010
Yes, Mark, if you can clarify a bit about what kind of data you will actually consider as a factor in your decision, perhaps people here can actually help you by providing that data so we can avoid arguments that just go around in circles.
What are you looking for? Polls? Anecdotes?
If polls, what would you like the poll options to be? If anecdotes, what specific things do you want people to test for?
Believe me, most of the people here who are opposed to the change would love to be able to work with you to get you what you need to make a well-informed decision. We just need guidance on what will actually help you.
So far, you haven't seemed to really take into consideration the valid criticisms that have been brought up (and, no, they haven't just been "we're used to something else"). You keep mentioning "data," so it'd be great to know either what data you are currently collection and what userbase that consists of or what data you would like us to collect for you and how you would like that approached so that you do take it seriously.
Jef Spaleta (jspaleta) [ https://launchpad.net/~jspaleta ]
March 25, 2010
aysiu:
Yes this is one of the fundamental communication breakdowns between the closed door design team and the external community. Shuttleworth and the design team want data.. but they haven't communicated what that means. Why hasn't that happened? Is the team concerned that the passionate minority with game the system and heavily bias the data that is being collected? There hasn't been a general data collecting methodology articulated for any of the experimental design decisions. This, more than any individual design decision, is the fundamental breakdown in communication which risks hardening passionate contributors in the Ubuntu community against Canonical in leading this work.
Data that would be interesting
Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)
March 25, 2010
On 25/03/10 17:12, Atel Apsfej wrote:
> Yes this is one of the fundamental communication breakdowns between the
> closed door design team and the external community. Shuttleworth and
> the design team want data.. but they haven't communicated what that
> means. Why hasn't that happened? Is the team concerned that the
> passionate minority with game the system and heavily bias the data that
> is being collected? There hasn't been a general data collecting
> methodology articulated for any of the experimental design decisions.
> This, more than any individual design decision, is the fundamental
> breakdown in communication which risks hardening passionate contributors
> in the Ubuntu community against Canonical in leading this work.
>
Atel, there is no conspiracy involved, nobody is afraid that data would be biased, because it's clear that all data is somehow biased and will need to be evaluated in that light. Nevertheless, data would be interesting. I haven't said what data in particular, because I thought it better to let people invent for themselves what might be a relevant study. If I said "I want data on X Y and Z" we'd get into a long argument about whether that's the relevant thing. I'd rather folks here had responded by saying "cool, here's some data I gathered".
Since that hasn't happened, some things I'd be interested in:
- where does the average mouse rest? i.e., when it's not being used, where is the mouse, usually? Think of a looooong term heat map of mouse locations, over a few hundred desktops and a few weeks. That would be interesting. Lots of people have said "My mouse is generally near the left because there's so much else there". others have said "The scrollbars on the right mean my mouse is hanging out there". Data would be useful.
- are there accidental clicks on the close button in the new location? We know that the new location has lots going on around it. Are people accidentally clicking the wrong thing?
- does it take longer to click it in the new location, once one is moving with intent in the right direction? We know that the fact that there's a lot around the target means finer motor control is required, and we know that generally means slower, more careful, more irritating movements. But is that actually measurably observed?
Those are three items I'd like data on.
But I'm sure there are folks following this conversation who could come up with smarter and more insightful formulations.
Mark
Gabriel Samfira (gabriel-samfira) [ https://launchpad.net/~gabriel-samfira ]
March 25, 2010
@Mark
I don't know if this is the right place to give you data on those 3 items, but at the moment there doesn't seem to be a more suitable medium, so here we go:
1. I prefer to have "Select windows when the mouse moves over them" (or focus-on-hover), so my mouse is all over the place. I rarely close a window, but i do maximize and minimize allot.
2. well..not *allot* of accidental closes, but enough to get me to pay more attention to what I am clicking. I do however (even now):
- maximize when i want to actually minimize
- minimize when trying to maximize
This happens mostly because i use Lucid at home and Hardy at work. We will continue to use Hardy until it is no longer supported. We try to avoid changing things in the workplace that don't *really* need changing (saves time and money).
3. For the first 10-30 minutes, every time i want to use the window controls, i go to the right first, and then remember that...they moved :). After that i consciously make the decision to move to the left (knowing that the buttons moved), and take great care on what i click. So it is not effortless. I have to think about what I'm doing, or i might close the window, lose some work and go out and buy a pound of ice-cream to ease my frustration. It does impact productivity on some scale.
At least at this point in time, taking into account the time i have spent in lucid (2-3 hours a day starting with Beta1), i feel uncomfortable with the change. This happens mainly because i have to get accustomed to the new order every time i get home from work. Its even more annoying when i try to find the controls on the left side in Hardy, because i have gotten used to them in Lucid. It is frustrating when a simple task like maximizing,minimizing and closing requires you to think about *how* to do *what* you want.
Hope this helps a bit!
Best regards,
Gabriel
Jef Spaleta (jspaleta)
March 25, 2010
Mark:
Good, finally some guidance. You shouldn't wait for people to think up data products on their own, that risks people spinning their wheels creating "data" that gets discarded because it doesn't meet your definition and leads to people feeling they are being ignored.
You and the design team are the only group in a position define what is acceptable data in your decision-making process. Putting forward some questions you want answered like you did above is helpful. But you could go further, and articulate a framework by which questions can be proposed by externals, accepted by the design team as important to the design process, and then answered with an acceptable data collection methodology.
If you do not articulate a data feedback framework that is acceptable to the design team then how is anyone suppose to know what you think is and is not acceptable? If you don't have a process by which people can propose questions worth answering with data, how do people know what to collect data on?
Generally speaking..when doing an experiment in a professional research setting you have to have a firm grasp on the questions you want answered and how you plan to collect data _before_ you do the experiment. You seldom just throw stuff together and "see what happens." Neither of the questions nor the data collection methodology were communicated before this "experiment" with the button positions. Something to think about before you embark on the next round of design experiments.
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)
March 26, 2010
On 25/03/10 22:18, gabriel_samfira wrote:
> 1. I prefer to have "Select windows when the mouse moves over them" (or
> focus-on-hover), so my mouse is all over the place. I rarely close a
> window, but i do maximize and minimize allot.
>
I understand that this is a relatively common preference, but it's only common amongst highly technical and sophisticated users. I'm glad to retain it as something an expert can enable (yay FLOSS :-)) but it won't be the Ubuntu default for the foreseeable future, and therefor can't easily inform our planning.
> 2. well..not *allot* of accidental closes, but enough to get me to pay
> more attention to what I am clicking. I do however (even now):
>
> - maximize when i want to actually minimize
> - minimize when trying to maximize
>
Yes, I think this is a very valid concern. The use of the same styling / colour for both max and min buttons means one has to pay closer attention than usual. The pared back nature of the iconography compounds the problem.
> This happens mostly because i use Lucid at home and Hardy at work. We
> will continue to use Hardy until it is no longer supported. We try to
> avoid changing things in the workplace that don't *really* need changing
> (saves time and money).
>
If we stick with a theme approach in Lucid that is foundational for future work, then a backport to current maintained releases would be appropriate, making it easier for people to keep a consistent portfolio of machines.
> Hope this helps a bit!
>
Yes, thank you.
Mark
Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)
March 26, 2010
On 25/03/10 22:25, Atel Apsfej wrote:
> Good, finally some guidance. You shouldn't wait for people to think up
> data products on their own, that risks people spinning their wheels
> creating "data" that gets discarded because it doesn't meet your
> definition and leads to people feeling they are being ignored.
>
We should learn from any data that's presented. If someone comes up with interesting data, we should gather what insight we can from it. And I would be cautious to define in advance the set of "things that might influence us". In my experience, inspiration and caution can come from unpredictable sources, and quite usefully so.
> You and the design team are the only group in a position define what is
> acceptable data in your decision-making process. Putting forward some
> questions you want answered like you did above is helpful.
OK, fair enough. In future, I'll be quicker to outline things that *might* be interesting, and encurage the team to do the same, but will still encourage folks to be inventive with their research and analysis. Otherwise we're not really crowdsourcing insight.
> But you could
> go further, and articulate a framework by which questions can be
> proposed by externals, accepted by the design team as important to the
> design process, and then answered with an acceptable data collection
> methodology.
>
There are certainly some questions that could definitively be answered with a single data set. We could keep an eye out for those. But they are relatively special. In this case, I can't think of a single data set that would be definitive. But that's why I'd prefer to leave the floor open to folks to suggest ones that might.
> If you do not articulate a data feedback framework that is acceptable to
> the design team then how is anyone suppose to know what you think is and
> is not acceptable? If you don't have a process by which people can
> propose questions worth answering with data, how do people know what to
> collect data on?
>
Collect data on what's interesting to you. Most of us do this because it's interesting, and we like both the company (that's you ;-)) and the domain. I can't guarantee that any contribution will make it into Ubuntu, whether it be a patch or a translation or a package or an idea. But they all make it richer, one way or another. And work that doesn't get picked up here is still part of the commons and may have an impact elsewhere.
Mark
Tom Harris (tom-harris) [ https://launchpad.net/~tom-harris ]
March 27, 2010
@Mark Shuttleworth
Would data collected in Windows be considered useful? Since we're using this to make a UI design change the current UI shouldn't affect it right? What matters, presumably is how we interact with documents that will look mostly the same on any operating system. I will try to collect data in Windows 7, since that is what I use day-to-day.
I expect to see my mouse mostly resting on the right since English language text is usually left-aligned, so leaving the mouse on the left would obscure it. I don't have a TV though so there will be occasions where my mouse rests at a random position on the screen because I'm watching a video. My point is that everyone uses their computer for different tasks, so without defining a framework (i.e. asking where does the mouse rest while writing an email, what about when chatting, now when writing a letter...) the amount of variables involved in what individual people use their computer for will seriously wreck any chance of receiving meaningful data.
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)
March 27, 2010
On 27/03/10 13:19, Tom Harris wrote:
> Would data collected in Windows be considered useful?
>
Yes, certainly. There'd be arguments about interpretations, but a good data gathering exercise would identify that.
Mark
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)
March 28, 2010
Folks, this bug is looking more like a mailing list every day. Can I suggest that we stop just poking at one another here. There are differing points of view, and insulting one another doesn't add to our ability to settle this matter. So, I'd suggest that we only add comments to this bug if they are adding data that could guide a decision. Neither "Me too" nor "you nutcase" posts get us any further, and will just lead to key people unsubscribing from the report.
Mark
Jef Spaleta (jspaleta)
March 31, 2010
Pyramid Technologies 545 :
Is anyone here... a customer? As in paying Canonical for anything? It would be very ironic if later it becomes known that these design changes were in fact prompted in part by paying customers such as OEM partners over the concerns of non-paying customers.
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)
March 31, 2010
On 31/03/10 19:07, Jefspa Leta wrote:
> Is anyone here... a customer? As in paying Canonical for anything? It
> would be very ironic if later it becomes known that these design changes
> were in fact prompted in part by paying customers such as OEM partners
> over the concerns of non-paying customers.
>
That is quite definitely not the case.
Jef Spaleta (jspaleta)
March 31, 2010
Mark,
It's not the case that such a hypothetical situation would be ironic? Or are you saying that someone in this ticket is a paying support customer? I'm not particular sure which of my sentences you are negating.
The intent was to get Pyramid to reassess the imprecise thinking about whether the word "customer" actually applies in the way he intended it implying that there are business market forces at work here in the interaction between users and the design team. There aren't. And if OEMs aren't paying for the changes, and end-users aren't paying for it... then by process of elimination that makes you the customer who is paying...and there is certainly no irony in that.
Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)
April 1, 2010
Jef, it is certainly not the case that any OEM has directed these changes. We do direct our original engineering to things that make Ubuntu better for OEM customers, but we have complete independence as to which way to lead Ubuntu. A lot of the OEM feedback is very valuable though.
Mark
Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)
April 1, 2010
Thank you to everybody who has participated in this discussion.
The final decision on window controls for 10.04 LTS is as follows:
- the window controls will remain on the left, however
- the order will change to be (from left) close, minimize, maximise
The decision is based on the view that putting the close button in the corner will be most familiar to many users, even if the particular choice of corner is not.
For the avoidance of doubt, this is not a comment dependent on the date :-)
Our intent is to encourage innovation, discussion, and design with the right of the window title bar. We have some ideas, and others are already springing up in the community. We welcome participation on the Ayatana list, where those can play out. This will be a fruitful topic for the design track at UDS in Brussels in May.
This bug is now marked wontfix. Please focus ongoing participation on the opportunities for innovation that this opens up. The decision as to the window controls location and order itself is now final, and as they say in the old newspapers, no further correspondence will be entered into.
Ubuntu-Me (treverplantaginate) [ https://launchpad.net/~treverplantaginate ]
July 23, 2010
I think it is important to consider not that I an others have gone back to Karmic Ubuntu, or that we left initially due to the User Interface issues pertaining to Lucid's (MacBuntu) feel, but rather the bigger picture. The loss of trust in Canonical's ability to maintain stability over time.
As a long time Ubuntu fan, it is a heartbreak to find myself running away from 'MacBuntu" and once again due to stability issues. While adding options to software is fine. Forcing them upon users will only serve to reduce membership.
Rather then deal with Mark's mistakes directly, and I think I speak for many, I can only say one thing.
( DEBIAN ! )
After trying Debian I became convinced that it was far better for me. I first ran Debian from a Virtual box. Its like Ubuntu and in fact Ubuntu has its roots there. One difference is Mark is not there, and the buttons are where they should always be.
MacBuntu is not for me, and I know that others might also be reading these posts. I saw many thngs wrong with Ubuntu 10.04. Speed problems and GUI button placement. Ubuntu was a nice ride while it lasted, and for that I am greatful. After running Debian for the first time I was sold in almost no time flat.
They pride themselves on stability and SPEED ! I say this to all Ubuntu fans like myself. If you don't like Mark's button ideas give Debian a test run. Perhaps like I did. In a VirtualBox. Impressive ! Let Ubuntu learn the Microsoft lesson. Seems like many companies seem to need to learn from mistakes these days. Switching the buttons is a big mistake. It got me looking in other directions, and while I have run Red Hat, and Suse, I never tried Debian. Until my buttons changed to the left that is.
If Ubuntu goes to the left and you don't like it try Debian. You will be impressed and I am no longer looking back.
So long Ubuntu ! If at first you don't succeed try try again....
8-P
Martin Wildam (mwildam) [ https://launchpad.net/~mwildam ]
July 23, 2010
On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 13:23, Ubuntu-Me <email address hidden> wrote:
> Rather then deal with Mark's mistakes directly, and I think I speak for
> many, I can only say one thing.
> ( DEBIAN ! )
My problem with debian the last time I tried it is that I need to do much more things
by hand and they have very old versions of some programs in their repositories only.
- But maybe you are using the "testing" version and not the "stable".
I tried several other distributions also but had issues with Fedora also for example. I like(d) Ubuntu for making most things work out-of-the-box or with just a few clicks. I can't frickle around at each new user with Hardware xy.
Unfortunately, even with the mobile internet sticks which were used to work out-of-the-box for me I got more and more troubles lately. However, I could help them being solved in Lucid during beta - but this is off-topic here.
The point for me is: It is not so easy to find the right distribution - either had a hardware lately that only works with Suse (no other distri tested worked) although I avoid Suse where I can.
In reality there should be more and better cooperation in the Linux world between
distributions. With actions like this - and now we get back to the topic finally
- the Ubuntu team is causing separation and not uniting forces which would be so
important for the whole Linux community.
--
Martin Wildam
Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)
July 23, 2010
On 23/07/10 13:18, Martin Wildam wrote:
> In reality there should be more and better cooperation in the Linux
> world between distributions. With actions like this - and now we get
> back to the topic finally - the Ubuntu team is causing separation and
> not uniting forces which would be so important for the whole Linux
> community.
I'd like to hear your justification for that statement. We've:
- built a bug tracker that explicitly lets us share bugs and fixes with other
distributions and upstreams (and is still the only open source comprehensive hosting
platform)
- consistently invited people from other distributions (debian, red hat, suse) to
our conference, even sponsoring them
- supported multiple efforts to converge on open standards across desktop environments
and distributions
You're entitled to your opinions, but simply repeating something you heard (potentially from a competitor) is a poor way to form or shape opinions.
Mark
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