From debian-devel@pixar.com Sun May 1 10:54:07 1994
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From: imurdock@gnu.ai.mit.edu
To: debian-devel@pixar.com
Subject: Debian 0.93 base /etc
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0b -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
Status: RO
I have uploaded most of the contents of the /etc directory of the
Debian 0.93 base system to tempest.ecn.purdue.edu, directory
/pub/debian/project/devel/pre-release/etc. A few files are still
missing, most notably the scripts in /etc/rc.d. I'm still not
satisfied with them.
If you maintain a package that needs a configuration file in /etc,
then please check to see if it exists already and, if it does, whether
or not what I have is correct. If it's not in the base system yet,
then please supply me with the needed file.
Even if you don't have or need a configuration file in /etc, then
please feel free to look at the files. Some of them need better
commenting; I'd like to have each configuration file well documented
by the release. It is quite possible that there are errors in a few
of them. The `termcap' needs work, as I've noticed some problems in
certain programs that use it. I'd appreciate help with this.
Please send additions and corrections to me. The rc.* scripts will be
available soon.
Ian Murdock < imurdock@gnu.ai.mit.edu>
From debian-devel@pixar.com Tue May 3 08:58:58 1994
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Date: Tue, 3 May 94 06:52 PDT
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From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
To: debian-devel@pixar.com
Subject: Debian 0.93 base /etc
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0b -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
Status: RO
Ian Murdock writes:
> I have uploaded most of the contents of the /etc directory of the
> Debian 0.93 base system to tempest.ecn.purdue.edu, directory
> /pub/debian/project/devel/pre-release/etc. A few files are still
> missing, most notably the scripts in /etc/rc.d. I'm still not
> satisfied with them.
>
> If you maintain a package that needs a configuration file in /etc,
> then please check to see if it exists already and, if it does, whether
> or not what I have is correct. If it's not in the base system yet,
> then please supply me with the needed file.
Gleep ! Aargh !
Are you intending to ship the config files for every package with the
base system ?!
This seems to me to be a very bad idea.
Firstly, it will make it hard to add new packages, because people with
older base systems will find them unconfigured.
Secondly, it will make a mess in /etc for the poor newbie sysadmin to
cope with ("why have I got a config file for XYZ when I don't have
XYZ", or even worse, "what is XYZ.conf ?").
Thirdly, it will make it hard for packages that need quite a bit of
install-time configuration (MTAs and the news subsystem come to mind).
Fourthly, it will use up space in /etc for no good reason. Who wants
a dozen INN configuration files in /etc/news when they don't even run
a newsreader, let alone a transport ?
Please, can we instead arrange for the post-install script to create
any necessary configuration files ? Caveats about not overwriting
existing files and so forth apply, of course.
Ian.
From debian-devel@pixar.com Tue May 3 10:42:54 1994
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Date: Tue, 3 May 94 08:36 PDT
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From: imurdock@gnu.ai.mit.edu
To: debian-devel@pixar.com
Subject: Debian 0.93 base /etc
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0b -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
Status: RO
Ian Jackson writes:
> Are you intending to ship the config files for every package with the
> base system ?!
>
> This seems to me to be a very bad idea.
I was intending to ship configuration files for the most common (i.e.,
base, required or standard class) packages in the base system.
Configuration for optional packages such and INN and UUCP could and
would be installed separately.
BTW, this was done in 0.91. I decided to do it because of the
upgrading problem; when we upgrade a package, we don't want a user's
customized configuration to be wiped out.
You're points are good, though; perhaps it was a bad decision, and I
hadn't thought about it much recently. Debian has become more modular
since the decision was made, and the current state of /etc perhaps
does not reflect that fact.
> Please, can we instead arrange for the post-install script to create
> any necessary configuration files ? Caveats about not overwriting
> existing files and so forth apply, of course.
If we could devise a scheme that would either update the user's
configuration files at upgrade time, if they exist, or at least help
the user do so, then I would rather do it that way.
Ian Murdock < imurdock@gnu.ai.mit.edu>
From debian-devel@pixar.com Thu May 5 22:59:31 1994
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Date: Thu, 5 May 94 20:53 PDT
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From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim)
To: debian-devel@pixar.com
Subject: Re: Debian 0.93 base /etc
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0b -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
Status: RO
With all of this talk of packaging software and default files it seems
that people are unfamiliar with the pkg* suite. it is available on
SYSV and is the standard way of packaging software under SCO and SVR4.
We had an effort to create a clone, but it faltered due to lack of
demand. It seems that this debate may bring it back. Most of the stuff
we created is on ftp.netcom.com:pub/zmbenhal/pkg. This is mostly docs
and skeleton programs + an example package.
Even if Debian doesn't adopt pkg* it might provide useful ideas for
those working with packaging tools. It is not the best scheme in the
world but it works, automates and standardizes packaging and installation,
and would be useful for install pre-packaged SCO/SVR4 software once
COFF/ELF is finalized.
Zeyd
From debian-devel@pixar.com Sat May 7 04:56:28 1994
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Date: Sat, 7 May 94 02:50 PDT
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From: Salvatore Valente < svalente@mit.edu>
To: debian-devel@pixar.com
Subject: Re: Debian 0.93 base /etc
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0b -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
Status: RO
The problem: when Debian is initially installed, it needs to install
the configuration files for whatever packages are installed. However,
when a package is updated, it should not gratuitously blow away the
old configuration files.
For example: A user installs the "x11base" package. This creates a
file /etc/Xconfig. He edits Xconfig for his video card. A month
later, a new version of Xfree is released. He installs the new
"x11base" package. It overwrites /etc/Xconfig and he hunts down the
Debian development team and kills them.
The first suggested solution: Make all configuration files part of the
base system. Don't put configuration files in any package tar file.
For example, /etc/Xconfig is not in the x11base package, so that
package can't accidentally overwrite it.
This suggestion is a bad idea for several reasons, which were clearly
and convincingly posted about a week ago by I-forget-who. (I think it
was Ian Jackson?)
I don't want to see this problem get ignored, so here are a couple of
suggestions.
- Give each package a semi-intelligent install script that will check
if the configuration file exists, and create it if it doesn't. For
example, the x11base package would not have Xconfig in the tar file.
Instead, the package post-installation script would do something like:
"test -r /etc/Xconfig || cat > /etc/Xconfig << EOF"
This option could probably work, but I can't say I like it very much.
- Make dpkg aware of special configuration files. That is: put
Xconfig in the tar file called something like "./etc/Xconfig.config".
After untarring the package, dpkg checks if it created any files
called "*.config". If it did, it checks if the file exists without
the .config extension. If the file doesn't exist, dpkg renames the
config file. If the file does exist, dpkg can do several things,
depending on the command line options it was given. It can either (a)
leave the .config file alone, (b) remove the .config file, (c) rename
the .config file, blowing away the old file, or (d) interactively ask
what it should do.
I like this option. It needs to be polished _a lot_, but I think it
can be made to work.
Comments? Thoughts? Flames? Mail bombs? Complete silence?
Have a nice day.
-Sal.
P.S. Sorry this message is so damn long.
From debian-devel@pixar.com Sat May 7 19:05:20 1994
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Date: Sat, 7 May 94 16:59 PDT
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From: mdw@sunsite.unc.edu (Matt Welsh)
To: debian-devel@pixar.com
Subject: Re: Debian 0.93 base /etc
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0b -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
Status: RO
Salvatore Valente < svalente@MIT.EDU> writes:
>
> The problem: when Debian is initially installed, it needs to install
> the configuration files for whatever packages are installed. However,
> when a package is updated, it should not gratuitously blow away the
> old configuration files.
We've already come up with the solution, I think.
> For example: A user installs the "x11base" package. This creates a
> file /etc/Xconfig. He edits Xconfig for his video card. A month
> later, a new version of Xfree is released. He installs the new
> "x11base" package. It overwrites /etc/Xconfig and he hunts down the
> Debian development team and kills them.
Each package will have a pre-install (and post-install) script that will
save old config files before writing the new versions. The system
admin can then reflect the local changes in the new config file, or
copy Xconfig.old to Xconfig, provided that the format of the file
has not changed.
This is simple to implement and is general enough to do other kinds of
pre/post installation tasks.
From debian-devel@pixar.com Mon May 16 08:31:43 1994
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Date: Mon, 16 May 94 06:25 PDT
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From: imurdock@gnu.ai.mit.edu
To: debian-devel@pixar.com
Subject: Debian 0.93 /etc snapshot
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0b -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
Status: RO
I have uploaded another snapshot of Debian 0.93's /etc directory to
tempest.ecn.purdue.edu: /pub/debian/project/devel/pre-release.
Individual files are in the directory etc-dist, and the entire
snapshot is etc-dist.tar.gz.
I have removed all of the non-base configuration files from the base
/etc (except for standard networking configuration). I have also made
several changes since the last snapshot. The rc.* scripts are now
included.
Please take a look and tell me of any problems. Many of the files
lack good comments; I would appreciate it if everyone could help add
comments to them. The termcap needs work, too.
The rc.* scripts use absolute paths. I know this is generally bad
practice, but here I found it appropriate because in many cases the
scripts need to make certain an executable exists before running it
(in the case that /usr is unavailable, for example). Please complain
now if you don't like this.
From debian-devel@pixar.com Thu May 19 13:51:33 1994
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Date: Thu, 19 May 94 11:45 PDT
Message-Id: <9405191843.AA26016@spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
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From: imurdock@gnu.ai.mit.edu
To: debian-devel@pixar.com
Subject: 0.93 base test release #1
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0b -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
Status: RO
Debian 0.93 test release #1 is available at tempest.ecn.purdue.edu in
/pub/debian/project/devel/test/0.93-base-1. Yes, this is a _test_
release! There are probably bugs. Please help me find and fix them.
I would recommend that you install this test release to a scratch
partition, because I will be fixing bugs as they are reported and this
will most likely result in several new releases over the next week or
two. Look for the usual problems: missing binaries or man pages,
errors in configuration files or scripts, and anti-social behavior in
general. Also, look at the man pages! One of my biggest goals is to
have man pages that are actually consistent with the system. I
haven't spent a great deal of time fixing them so far, but I'm fixing
inconsistencies as I notice them and I'd appreciate it if you'd let me
know of any you discover (of course, you'll have to install groff and
a manual pager first... :).
The installation procedure is, well, not very good. It's basically
0.91's installation procedure with minor changes to make it work with
the 0.93 release. Matt Welsh and I will begin working on the new
installation procedure immediately. Please, for the moment, only
report problems with the base system itself. (Of course, suggestions
on the _implementation_ of the installation procedure are welcome.)
For now, you need to put the tar files on a filesystem that can be
mounted from the bootdisk (floppy disk or hard disk partition are good
choices). I think everyone here can figure it out.
If you want to hack the bootdisk, please see `README.bootdisk'. You
can't just mount it.
(Most of) the base system sources are in `pre-release/src/base'; there
are a few source packages missing, and I'm still working on others
that have already been uploaded. Get the sources if you want, but
there may still be problems with some of them.
Please keep this release confined to debian-devel until we have
a stable base system. Thanks.
Ian Murdock < imurdock@gnu.ai.mit.edu>
(Thu May 19 13:40:45 EDT 1994)
From debian-devel@pixar.com Fri May 20 21:35:43 1994
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Date: Fri, 20 May 94 19:29 PDT
Message-Id: <9405210228.AA10547@spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
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From: imurdock@gnu.ai.mit.edu
To: debian-devel@pixar.com
Subject: What next?
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0b -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
Status: RO
Now that the base system is available, here is what I hope the project
can accomplish in the near future.
First of all, I hope that everyone is testing 0.93 material as it
becomes available. Thorough testing is much needed. I am running the
first 0.93 test release on my system without problems. The only area
that really needs improvement is the installation procedure. I have
found a few minor bugs in the system and a second test release will
probably be available before the end of the weekend. I hope that by
June 1 we can finally release the 0.93 base system to the public.
There are also test releases of networking and X available; please try
them out if you can.
Our next priority is the dpkg utility and binary package guidelines.
Matt Welsh and I will be working on these. Much of dpkg has already
been written and works; we just need to decide what dpkg is going to
do and what the proposed front-end is going to do before releasing it.
dpkg must be a utility that doesn't change much after its release or
there will be big problems, so forgive our caution.
What to do in the meantime? I would encourage package maintainers to
keep source packages compliant with the latest release of the
guidelines on tempest. This will require periodic updating of the
packages, but we really need to start getting the source packages
ready and uploaded. install-info and other matters may require
changes to them in the near future, but the changes will be trivial.
And don't be afraid to make a tar file of your binary package for
testing purposes; the best way to get the bugs out of your package is
to let other people use it.
I'm going to try to have my machine available between the hours of
11pm EDT and 8am EDT for project use every night. For the moment, the
name is `murdoc.pnet.msen.com'. The connection is through our only
telephone line, so it may not always be available. I had hoped for a
more reliable connection, but the best estimate was over $150 to put
in another line here. We'll just have to deal with it; it may not
always be available, but ping can easily be used to find out.
From debian-devel@pixar.com Sat May 28 00:34:38 1994
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Date: Fri, 27 May 94 22:28 PDT
Message-Id: < m0q7Gw3-0000YLC@debra>
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From: imurdock@murdoc.pnet.msen.com (Ian Murdock)
To: debian-devel@pixar.com
Subject: Documentation, 0.93, dpkg
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0b -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
Status: RO
First of all, I'm interested in which packages have documentation that
might be suitable for inclusion in our set of manuals. I'm referring
to non-Info documentation... for example, the manual that comes with
the Elvis package. Please let me know if the package you maintain has
such a manual.
Secondly, I'm going to try to release the final 0.93 base system
tomorrow. There have been virtually no reports of problems with the
test release, so I'm going to announce this one to debian-announce
with a prominent warning that it is still incomplete. I want to get
more people using the new releases, and I want everyone to know that
the reorganization of the project is progressing well. From the
perspective of debian-announce and debian-user, the project probably
looks as if it has died.
It's time to start getting source packages for 0.93 done or to bring
up final questions or suggestions concerning the source guidelines.
In addition, I would like to see binary tar packages being made for
the 0.93 base system release. The only changes that will need to be
made to these tar packages to add dpkg support is the addition of a
control file and package installation and removal scripts. In the
time before dpkg is finished, tar packages would be very useful to
those who want to build a 0.93-based system, and we need people using
0.93. Additionally, they would provide feedback about your package
and would provide an excellent starting point for you once dpkg is
done. Please consider putting one together.
For those who have asked about the status of dpkg, we've decided to
keep it simple; dpkg will only do the basic manipulation of packages,
and a front-end will handle the more complex issue of configuration
and the package selection interface. A spec is being drafted by Matt
Welsh to ensure that package maintainers know what to expect from dpkg
and the front-end. I will post an updated look at the construction of
the dpkg control file sometime tomorrow.