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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:53:41 +0100 (BST)
From: Paul G Cooper <pgc@maths.warwick.ac.uk>
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Subject: Advocacy report [part 1]
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Hi,
You might remember that I asked for some advocay tips a while ago - well
now I'll tell you how it went . Just as a reminder - I had more or less
persueded the Maths department to switch to gnome as the default desktop
(used to be fvwm) on linux machines. Myself and the Maths dept sys admin
had a meeting with the main campus sys admins to discuss harmonizing
desktop setups and the encroachment of NT.
The story is long so I've split it into two (still quite long) parts. Part
1 concerns the meeting with central campus sys admins and part 2 with my
attempt to setup gnome in the maths department. Part 1 may be relevant to
the recent discussions about image and pr. Part 2 has more to do with
implememntation and observations of newbie gnome users.
By and large the meeting went well and we agreed about alot of things.
They had already done a little investigating and were impressed with our
gnome setup.
However these guys are (understandibly) fairly conservative about what
goes on their machines and they felt that GNOME had a reputation for being
unstable BUT they felt the GNU in GNOME meant this would get sorted out
eventually (I told them it was already sorted out more or less - this was
a week before October Gnome). So *I think* we agreed that kde would go on
the machines now(ish) - as they are confident it's stable - and Gnome in a
few months when they're happy it's stable. Before we get into KDE / Gnome
stability comparisons or whatever I'd like to point out that them adopting
kde is good for gnome. How? Becasue these are hardcore unix console guys
that don't use desktops so to them it's all the same thing by different
people. Once we get kde through the door it will be easy for gnome to
follow.
They saw we were using enlightenment and were worried that it was a bit of
a resource hog (again I know that with a minimal theme it isn't - that's
not the point) I did show them sawmill but despite the fact that the main
developer is from Warwick uni they weren't that impressed as they
considered it an unstable work in progress. Unstable is unfair (I think
it's great!) but since we talked it's revved from 0.11 to 0.14 so 'in
progress' is fair enough. I mentioned that could also use WM or IceWM so
had some scope for a lighter weight wm. I know there are more wm's that
support gnome but I didn't want to give the impression that they would end
up supporting 15 wm's.
So the moral of this part of the story is that (first) impressions count
even with Unix people who perhaps should know better. If I take these guys
impression to the extreme it seem that our 'PR dept.' has to battle the
impression that gnome
. is not stable
. relies on enlightenment which is a resource hog
but in our favour is
. the gnu in gnome
. that when you actually show gnome people realise it's good, and much
nicer than NT!
Admittedly two sys admins from wariwck uni isn't a hugely representative
sample!
Part 2 to follow
Paul
-------------------------------------------------------
Paul Cooper | pgc@maths.warwick.ac.uk
Phd Research Student | 01203 523523 ext. 26325
Room 129 | www.maths.warwick.ac.uk/~pgc/
Mathematics Institute |
University of Warwick |
Coventry, CV5 7AL |
-------------------------------------------------------
From pgc@maths.warwick.ac.uk
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:50:07 +0100 (BST)
From: Paul G Cooper <pgc@maths.warwick.ac.uk>
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Reply-To: Paul G Cooper <pgc@maths.warwick.ac.uk>
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Subject: Advocacy report [part 2]
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This part concerns my efforts in creating a gnome environment for some new
machines (and new students) in the Maths department. It's meant partly as
advice if anyone else as unskilled as me has to do this, partly to give
feedback to the developers, and partly to ask for some help with the
outstanding problems. This message is long ;-/
What we wanted was a nice simple setup for students who were either used
to windows or not used to computers at all. What we wanted was a nice
'neutral' background, a minimal menu (but without wiping out the system
menu alltogether), a corner panel with foot menu, tasklist, and logout
button.
This was easy to do: I simply created this setup in my user account. On
the properties of the foot menu I chose for the sys menu to be in a
submenu and for the user menu to be on the menu. I then added the stuff we
wanted to my user menu using the menu config app. Easy peasy. Used
control centre to change the background and changed the panel to a corner
panel and added a logout button.
Now I just copied these files/dirs from .gnome to the skel setup
Background
apps/
panel
panel.d/
and hey presto folks have a customized setup when their accounts is
created (for legacy reason it's a little more complicated for us but
morally just as easy).
I also rm'd the file /usr/lib/desktop-links/redhat.links (or whatever it's
called - I removed so can't check ;-) so that the desktop would have only
the Home dir and floppy disk icons.
I created a nice little warwick maths logo to put in gdm2 and altered the
config so that the system menu doesn't appear.
So well done gnome developers this bit was easy!
Here are the problems I've found so far;
. in gnome terminal the setup *seems* to be machine specific. Logon to one
machine change the prefs logout and logon to another and the changes
aren't there. Login to the original machine and they are. The default
white on black setup is awful as well.
. mounting/unmounting - yes this old chestnut is still with us. In a way
the automounting on double click of the floppy icon makes this worse
because users are unaware that they've even mounted the floppy so don't
relaise they have to unmount it after use. I've had a little play with
autofs but so far have been unable to make it work. Any tips or advice
would be greatly appreciated.
I did wonder if it would be possible for gmc to unount the drive as soon
as the last window on the floppy was closed?
Perhaps putting a umount /mnt/floppy in the PostSession of gdm (or in
.logout) might prevent the next user from having (initial) problems? Just
had these ideas and haven't had a chance to try.
. middle mouse click to copy has caused problems - to be honest I've
forgotten what windows does so I'm not sure why - people seemed to think
that left drag and drop a file should create a copy NOT move it. Another
factor is that it isn't abvious what is the 'middle' mouse button. For
instance some of the mice are Genius Netmouse pro's and with those the
little button on the side ('under the thumb') acts as the middle mouse
button. On a two button mouse you have to use both buttons together, and
on a wheel mouse the wheel is the middle button (which isn't obvious even
though the wheel is in the middle). It would be nice if this were (easily)
configurable - or is it and I am being ignorant?
. This isn't a problem with gnome but an observation. It's curious how the
it's fairly easy to spot windows users on these machines. They've all got
17in monitors and are running at 1280x1024 or 1182x864. Windows users
*tend* to run everything full screen one at a time, where as people with
previous unix experience tend to have more than one thing on screen at a
time. This might also have something to do with typical home computer
monitor size. Someone aked me if it is possibel to switch the resolution
to 800x600 because web pages are nicer in that resolution - I was
momentarily stunned ;-) I noticed someone has written a resolution
switching applet which I might investigate.
Rightnow I'm writing an FAQ for the students using the new machines and so
far the questions all relate to using the floppy but I can post new
questions (and my answers) to the list if folks are interested.
Paul
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> Now I just copied these files/dirs from .gnome to the skel setup
I only recently learned about skel, i could have used that when i setup
my
family's accounts.
> . mounting/unmounting - yes this old chestnut is still with us. In a way
> the automounting on double click of the floppy icon makes this worse
> because users are unaware that they've even mounted the floppy so don't
> relaise they have to unmount it after use. I've had a little play with
> autofs but so far have been unable to make it work. Any tips or advice
> would be greatly appreciated.
>
> I did wonder if it would be possible for gmc to unount the drive as soon
> as the last window on the floppy was closed?
With code tweaks, anything is possible. But if someone wants to mount
the
floppy and write it it from another application (say Wordperfect), this
could
be messy.
> Perhaps putting a umount /mnt/floppy in the PostSession of gdm (or in
> .logout) might prevent the next user from having (initial) problems? Just
> had these ideas and haven't had a chance to try.
Probally... just make sure if you do this that you disable text
consoles..
it would be a sin if someone log'ed out of the gui and was still in a
console,
and their data was lost/damaged. Also, .logout might be run when a
xterm is
closed so that might not be a good idea, test it first :)
> . middle mouse click to copy has caused problems - to be honest I've
> forgotten what windows does so I'm not sure why - people seemed to think
> that left drag and drop a file should create a copy NOT move it.
Thats why I always used keyboard short-cuts when I was a windows user,
because
everything else was ass-backwards. The behavior you show is a windows
"feature", even worse is when you drag an executable a "link" (windows
links
are much like the desktop icons in gnome, not real symbolic links)
> Another
> factor is that it isn't abvious what is the 'middle' mouse button. For
> instance some of the mice are Genius Netmouse pro's and with those the
> little button on the side ('under the thumb') acts as the middle mouse
> button. On a two button mouse you have to use both buttons together, and
> on a wheel mouse the wheel is the middle button (which isn't obvious even
> though the wheel is in the middle). It would be nice if this were (easily)
> configurable - or is it and I am being ignorant?
This is X-server dependant.. note however; that you should instead
invest
in some cheap, bi-handed mice. As I am left-handed, I can personally
tell
you that a righty-mouse in the left hand is very painful.
Unless you teach the users how to use the mice, i don't see how the
software
can teach them? Perhaps you want 2 button functionality on 3button mice?
Just
set emu3buttons in XF86Config.
> . This isn't a problem with gnome but an observation. It's curious how the
> it's fairly easy to spot windows users on these machines. They've all got
> 17in monitors and are running at 1280x1024 or 1182x864. Windows users
> *tend* to run everything full screen one at a time, where as people with
> previous unix experience tend to have more than one thing on screen at a
> time. This might also have something to do with typical home computer
> monitor size. Someone aked me if it is possibel to switch the resolution
> to 800x600 because web pages are nicer in that resolution - I was
> momentarily stunned ;-) I noticed someone has written a resolution
> switching applet which I might investigate.
It wouldn't compile for me but basicly it takes all current modes in
your
current bitdepth and lets you change them via a menu.. basicly does what
alt-ctrl-[-] and alt-ctrl-[+] do, but from the panel.
> Rightnow I'm writing an FAQ for the students using the new machines and so
> far the questions all relate to using the floppy but I can post new
> questions (and my answers) to the list if folks are interested.
>
> Paul
>
> --
> FAQ: Frequently-Asked Questions at http://www.gnome.org/gnomefaq
> To unsubscribe: mail gnome-list-request@gnome.org with
> "unsubscribe" as the Subject.
I run Gnome in a family environment and it works very nicely for me..
and it
seems that in a school environment it works just as great.
Btw, unfortunatly the only time I saw linux being used by a school
(offically)
they were running KDE. Perhaps, because it was an international
conference
and KDE is just much better at linguistics (I have compared.. from a
non-english view point kde is much better.. it renames the desktop icons
and
"start" menu entries to the other language)
--
Eric Windisch
From dho@cit.nepean.uws.edu.au
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 10:07:20 +1000 (EST)
From: Danny Ho <dho@cit.nepean.uws.edu.au>
To: Paul G Cooper <pgc@maths.warwick.ac.uk>
cc: gnome-list@gnome.org, recipient list not shown: ;
Subject: Re: Advocacy report [part 1]
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On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Paul G Cooper wrote:
Why would you want use GNOME.
If you wanted to use GNOME etc in companies.
You will have to:-
1)Document new procedures
2) Train the user on the system.
3) Train the support staff on how to support GNOME on Linux or BSD .
But I would use GNOME at home
Even though LInux, Freebsd,Macintosh OS 8 is better than NT. I will never
endorse companies to use the above OS.
But you should have standards. Even though using Freebsd, Linux or a Mac
might be better. Why make your job differcult by not complying with
standards:)
>
> Hi,
>
> You might remember that I asked for some advocay tips a while ago - well
> now I'll tell you how it went . Just as a reminder - I had more or less
> persueded the Maths department to switch to gnome as the default desktop
> (used to be fvwm) on linux machines. Myself and the Maths dept sys admin
> had a meeting with the main campus sys admins to discuss harmonizing
> desktop setups and the encroachment of NT.
>
> The story is long so I've split it into two (still quite long) parts. Part
> 1 concerns the meeting with central campus sys admins and part 2 with my
> attempt to setup gnome in the maths department. Part 1 may be relevant to
> the recent discussions about image and pr. Part 2 has more to do with
> implememntation and observations of newbie gnome users.
>
> By and large the meeting went well and we agreed about alot of things.
> They had already done a little investigating and were impressed with our
> gnome setup.
>
> However these guys are (understandibly) fairly conservative about what
> goes on their machines and they felt that GNOME had a reputation for being
> unstable BUT they felt the GNU in GNOME meant this would get sorted out
> eventually (I told them it was already sorted out more or less - this was
> a week before October Gnome). So *I think* we agreed that kde would go on
> the machines now(ish) - as they are confident it's stable - and Gnome in a
> few months when they're happy it's stable. Before we get into KDE / Gnome
> stability comparisons or whatever I'd like to point out that them adopting
> kde is good for gnome. How? Becasue these are hardcore unix console guys
> that don't use desktops so to them it's all the same thing by different
> people. Once we get kde through the door it will be easy for gnome to
> follow.
>
> They saw we were using enlightenment and were worried that it was a bit of
> a resource hog (again I know that with a minimal theme it isn't - that's
> not the point) I did show them sawmill but despite the fact that the main
> developer is from Warwick uni they weren't that impressed as they
> considered it an unstable work in progress. Unstable is unfair (I think
> it's great!) but since we talked it's revved from 0.11 to 0.14 so 'in
> progress' is fair enough. I mentioned that could also use WM or IceWM so
> had some scope for a lighter weight wm. I know there are more wm's that
> support gnome but I didn't want to give the impression that they would end
> up supporting 15 wm's.
>
> So the moral of this part of the story is that (first) impressions count
> even with Unix people who perhaps should know better. If I take these guys
> impression to the extreme it seem that our 'PR dept.' has to battle the
> impression that gnome
>
> . is not stable
> . relies on enlightenment which is a resource hog
>
> but in our favour is
>
> . the gnu in gnome
> . that when you actually show gnome people realise it's good, and much
> nicer than NT!
>
> Admittedly two sys admins from wariwck uni isn't a hugely representative
> sample!
>
> Part 2 to follow
>
> Paul
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Paul Cooper | pgc@maths.warwick.ac.uk
> Phd Research Student | 01203 523523 ext. 26325
> Room 129 | www.maths.warwick.ac.uk/~pgc/
> Mathematics Institute |
> University of Warwick |
> Coventry, CV5 7AL |
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> FAQ: Frequently-Asked Questions at http://www.gnome.org/gnomefaq
> To unsubscribe: mail gnome-list-request@gnome.org with
> "unsubscribe" as the Subject.
>
#########################################################################
#
#
# The bible fortells that someone powerful would rise up and
# lead the world to destruction. And Bill Gates definitely has this kind
# of power in his hands.
#
#
#########################################################################
From dennis@telepath.com
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To: Danny Ho <dho@cit.nepean.uws.edu.au>
CC: Paul G Cooper <pgc@maths.warwick.ac.uk>, gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: Advocacy report [part 1]
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Danny Ho wrote:
>
> On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Paul G Cooper wrote:
>
> Why would you want use GNOME.
>
> If you wanted to use GNOME etc in companies.
>
> You will have to:-
>
> 1)Document new procedures
Thank People like Paul for leading the way
> 2) Train the user on the system.
Thank People like Paul for leading the way
> 3) Train the support staff on how to support GNOME on Linux or BSD .
Thank People like Paul for leading the way
>
> But I would use GNOME at home
Have you not learned more about computers using Gnome at home than you
have with NTs no choice system?
> Even though LInux, Freebsd,Macintosh OS 8 is better than NT. I will never
> endorse companies to use the above OS.
If they are better why not choose?
> But you should have standards. Even though using Freebsd, Linux or a Mac
> might be better. Why make your job differcult by not complying with
> standards :)
Freebsd, Linux lead the way in the use of computing standards, MS and
Mac lead to proprietary lock in and file formats that only their users
can open when they pay the price for upgrades, upgrades that only add
bloat.
So why promote the use of systems that puts the customer second and
profit first?
Thank leaders like Paul who pave the way, please don't knock them for
putting out the extra effort the rest of us are to lazy to do.
Thanks
Dennis Lee
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Subject: Re: Advocacy report [part 1]
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Danny Ho wrote:
>
> On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Paul G Cooper wrote:
>
> Why would you want use GNOME.
Because it's a flexible, fast-developing desktop that runs on *nix. The
target audience includes UNIX folks.
> If you wanted to use GNOME etc in companies.
>
> You will have to:-
>
> 1)Document new procedures
> 2) Train the user on the system.
If the users are relative novices, setting them up with a Windows-like
environment will leverage most of what they already know (how to use a
mouse, menus, drag/drop, etc). My kids used Win31 a little and Win95 for
about a year. They have no trouble using KDE or GNOME. Their tasks are
generally limited to launching/exiting applications, and
creating/saving/printing documents. They don't do any file management, but I
think gmc and kfm are similar enough to Windows Explorer that someone that
uses Explorer to manage files could use the KDE and GNOME equivalents.
> 3) Train the support staff on how to support GNOME on Linux or BSD .
This is an issue. Whether it's worth it depends on what they were using
before.
> But I would use GNOME at home
>
> Even though LInux, Freebsd,Macintosh OS 8 is better than NT. I will never
> endorse companies to use the above OS.
I disagree. There are situations where it would be a good idea right now.
What about an environment where PC support is expensive and users only use a
few applications which have equivalents on Linux? The built-in ability to
preconfigure user desktops, easily limit what they can do, and remotely
administer the machine are strengths. It is true that if you buy enough
software, you can get some of this functionality with Windows PCs, but you
would be fighting the system. GNOME and KDE operate in an environment where
such controls are assumed in the design and are supported natively. Then
there's the ability to easily have users keep the same desktop no matter
where they login. A central home directory on an NFS mount or using cheap
PCs as XTerminals (or a combination of both) allows users to login from any
of multiple machines and still have the same environment.
I use an old P60 as an XTerminal at home, and I love the fact that I only
have one set of applications to worry about, only one set of user files, one
set of config files, etc. I like the fact that I can sit down at either
machine and have the same environment. I sometimes have to use other
Winboxes at work and always end up looking around to find things because the
desktop is machine-dependent instead of user-dependent. NT changes this to
an extent, but there are still things like setting the application that runs
when you double-click on a file. This is still machine-dependent and not
user-dependent on Winboxes.
As KDE and GNOME become more stable and powerful, there will be more
situations where deploying them makes sense.
> But you should have standards. Even though using Freebsd, Linux or a Mac
> might be better. Why make your job differcult by not complying with
> standards :)
He's creating new standards within his organization. Many people did the
same when upgrading from DOS to Win31, and from Win31 to Win95, then to
Win98, and eventually to W2k. Standards change.
--
Anthony E. Greene agreene@pobox.com
Homepage & PGP Key http://www.pobox.com/~agreene/
If it's too good to be true, it's probably Linux.
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
Date: 27 Oct 1999 14:37:27 -0500
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> > 1)Document new procedures
>
> Thank People like Paul for leading the way
Very good point there Dennis.
Miguel.
--
miguel@gnu.org
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
Date: 27 Oct 1999 14:44:33 -0500
In-Reply-To: Paul G Cooper's message of "Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:50:07 +0100 (BST)"
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Paul wrote:
> . mounting/unmounting - yes this old chestnut is still with us. In a way
> the automounting on double click of the floppy icon makes this worse
> because users are unaware that they've even mounted the floppy so don't
> relaise they have to unmount it after use. I've had a little play with
> autofs but so far have been unable to make it work. Any tips or advice
> would be greatly appreciated.
>
> I did wonder if it would be possible for gmc to unount the drive as soon
> as the last window on the floppy was closed?
psst wrote some time ago how to achieve this, basically it depensds on
the autofs Linux automounter, he suggested putting on /etc:
/etc/auto.master and /etc/auto.misc
In auto.master, you put:
/mnt/misc /etc/auto.auto -o codepage=850 --timeout=1
This means "use /mnt/misc for automatically mounting devices, and
after 1 second of innactivity, unmount the device".
Then in auto.misc, you put:
cd -fstype=iso9660,user,ro,unhide ; this is /dev/cdrom
floppy -fstype=vfat,user ; this is the floppy device
Then you use a auto-link setup (documentation is in the mc distro as
the file README.desktop), so that you create those symlinks in the
desktop to those directories. That will get you automounting for
free.
I think this is worth pursuing.
btw, your document is very good. Would you like to assemble all of
your hints in a "GNOME Administrators Handbook" of some sort, it seems
like you have done a great job, and keeping these details documented
seems like a very good idea.
best wishes,
Miguel.
--
miguel@gnu.org