From miguel@gnu.org
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@gnu.org>
To: gnome-list@gnome.org, gnome-announce-list@gnome.org, gnu-announce@gnu.org
Subject: Call for constructive user criticism.
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Hello guys,
So there I was, watching Animal Planet with a special issue on
Bonobos. Interesting documentary, and it ocurred to me: How can we
make GNOME so simple that even a Bonobo could use it?
Here is what we need:
1. A team of *users* that would tell us what they would like to see
in GNOME:
a. To make the interface easier.
b. To make it more intuitive to people.
c. To make the system more consistent.
d. To make the system "nicer".
e. To make GNOME the best user interface out there.
f. To improve the documentation of GNOME.
2. A team coordinator that would compile and maintain all of these
ideas and comments. He would need to provide a document on the
web to allow the developers to address those usability issues.
3. We need people to coordinate with this person.
4. We need the first draft to evolve "naturally". This means,
there is no need to wait for years to get the perfect document
done. Get a draft out in two days and keep updating it. It
does not need to address everything at the beginning and it can
change from day to day.
* On the document
We would like this document to include precise steps on what can be
done to achieve a certain goal.
For example, saying "Make it easy" on the document will be a very
difficult thing to implement or to guess what it does.
The more concrete you can be, the better. For example "Change XXX
in the YYY location to do ZZZZ instead of JJJJJ; I think this can be
done by hacking a piece of code here and there and integrating there"
would be excellent.
* On Consistency:
The thing that bothers me is that we have for example two ways of
"docking" applications in GNOME: on the Desktop and on the Panel. We
have various ways of printing: with the print applet or with the print
toy-lette.
Is this a problem? Do people mind? Or do people applaud this
duality?
* On usability
We want to make existing users of Mac, Windows and Next feel
confortable with a Unix-based system and feel productive and feel like
they are using the best tools out there. So they can go with their
friends and honestly say "Your proprietary system is ancient; Not only
ancient but complex, I use GNOME at home". You get the idea.
* Coordination
The coordintion can take place in gnome-list@gnome.org, or in the
gnome-gui-list@gnome.org.
For documentation related issues, you can contact Dave
(dcm@redhat.com) directly, he is coordinating the GNOME documentation
effort.
* Notes
We can not do big interface "leaps" quickly, but we can try. We
are certainly interested in things that would be more consistent in
the short term as well.
Best wishes,
Miguel.
From miguel@gnu.org
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@gnu.org>
To: jcape@jcinteractive.com
CC: gnome-list@gnome.org, gnome-announce-list@gnome.org, gnu-announce@gnu.org
In-reply-to: <37A493A6.B8AE5EB4@jcinteractive.com> (jcape@jcinteractive.com)
Subject: Re: Call for constructive user criticism.
X-Quote: If at first you don't succeed, redefine success.
References: <199908011818.NAA14934@erandi.nuclecu.unam.mx>
<37A493A6.B8AE5EB4@jcinteractive.com>
Hello guys,
Jim Cape is going to be acting as the coordinator for this project
of upgrading the GNOME user interface to be extraordinaire.
His email address is: jcape@jcinteractive.com
Best wishes,
MIguel.
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From: "jack wallen, jr" <jlwallen@iglou.com>
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Subject: Re: Call for constructive user criticism.
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when you say a team of *users* do these *users* have to be developers? if
not i would be interested in being one of these *users*
J A C K W A L L E N, J R.
get jack'd @ techrepublic.com get L I N U X or get lost
-----
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From nelson-gnome@crynwr.com
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From: nelson-gnome@crynwr.com
To: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@gnu.org>
Cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: Call for constructive user criticism.
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Miguel de Icaza writes:
> 1. A team of *users* that would tell us what they would like to see
> in GNOME:
>
> a. To make the interface easier.
> b. To make it more intuitive to people.
> c. To make the system more consistent.
> d. To make the system "nicer".
> e. To make GNOME the best user interface out there.
I'm not sure that *users* know what to ask for. I don't think that
anecdotal evidence is the best way to improve a UI. Probably the best
thing to do would be to find a University with a good HCI department
(U. Toronto comes to mind) and "partner" with them. Partnering is
good, because it is marketing buzzword #45.
--
-russ nelson <rn-sig@crynwr.com> http://crynwr.com/~nelson
Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | Government schools are so
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | bad that any rank amateur
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX | can outdo them. Homeschool!
From jlwallen@iglou.com
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From: "jack wallen, jr" <jlwallen@iglou.com>
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Subject: Re: Call for constructive user criticism.
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but don't you think since the *users* of gnome are the target - you would
want to know what they are looking for? there are users out there (i like
to think of myself as such) who know what to look for in a user interface.
this has come from using a great many of them and knowing what works and
what doesn't. maybe my skills as a developer are null but i think having
opinions from every side of the coin helps.
and why would you want to cut yourself off from end user opinion? that's
a very Microsoftian philosophy - in my opinion.
anyway...not cutting down anyone's ideas. i just think that too often
the *user's* voice is ignored. many times on this list (gnome-list that
is) i get ignored - be it question or suggestion or announcement of a
topic i am writing about. (if the gnome-list is strictly for devs let me
know and i'll gladly jump ship ;-) ).
just my .02.
On Sun, 1 Aug 1999 nelson-gnome@crynwr.com wrote:
> Miguel de Icaza writes:
> > 1. A team of *users* that would tell us what they would like to see
> > in GNOME:
> >
> > a. To make the interface easier.
> > b. To make it more intuitive to people.
> > c. To make the system more consistent.
> > d. To make the system "nicer".
> > e. To make GNOME the best user interface out there.
>
> I'm not sure that *users* know what to ask for. I don't think that
> anecdotal evidence is the best way to improve a UI. Probably the best
> thing to do would be to find a University with a good HCI department
> (U. Toronto comes to mind) and "partner" with them. Partnering is
> good, because it is marketing buzzword #45.
>
> --
> -russ nelson <rn-sig@crynwr.com> http://crynwr.com/~nelson
> Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | Government schools are so
> 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | bad that any rank amateur
> Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX | can outdo them. Homeschool!
>
>
> --
> FAQ: Frequently-Asked Questions at http://www.gnome.org/gnomefaq
> To unsubscribe: mail gnome-list-request@gnome.org with
> "unsubscribe" as the Subject.
>
>
J A C K W A L L E N, J R.
get jack'd @ techrepublic.com get L I N U X or get lost
-----
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From dennis@telepath.com
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From: Dennis Lee <mudpup@telepath.com>
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To: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@gnu.org>
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Miguel de Icaza wrote:
> Here is what we need:
Users use rpms or other such tools to install, they (me) don't
understand all the scattered files that dot the many directories like
weeds in a garden.
1. Gnome needs to improve the (install process | upgrade process) there
are to many small files / libraries that break one another it seems like
when you up grade one program You have to up grade another library or
two. After that you find some other program is broken. You can not back
out what you just done because of newly created dependencies.
2. Gnome developers need to stop stepping on one another set something
as stable base library combine that into one binary. All programs should
be built against the stable base or core.
>
> 1. A team of *users* that would tell us what they would like to see
> in GNOME:
The interface is fine for now. Make the system very very stable first.
Last I tried to look through the bugs data base, there was more than 400
bugs over 60 days old.
Perhaps a week or two of bug clean up first.
Usability does not mean shit if the system is full of bugs.
I would be glad to try and help with bug clean up If I knew where the
stable edge was, and could get my copy of the gnome interface on some
sort of even keel.
Sorry I just had to Rant / Vent
Dennis Lee
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From: "James M. Cape" <jcape@jcinteractive.com>
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To: GUI List <gnome-gui-list@gnome.org>, Gnome List <gnome-list@gnome.org>,
GNOME Announce List <gnome-announce-list@gnome.org>
Subject: GNOME User Interface Improvement Project
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This is an FAQ for the GNOME UI Improvement Project:
1. What is the GNOME UI Improvement Project?
A project to take in user's problems, suggestions, and rantings about
the user interface of *any* GNOME app, come up with workable solutions
to these problems, and then contact the author of the program in
question to work towards fixing these problems. This means that I need
YOU THE USER to tell me and the rest of the UI Team (not yet formed, but
contactable via the gnome-gui mailing list) about these problems. Those
of us on the team will:
1. Make the interface easier to use.
2. Make the interface as intuitive as possible.
3. Make the interface consistent.
4. Make it generally nicer to the user.
5. Make the interface better than *any* other.
We are in competition with KDE, Windows, GNUStep/NeXT,
Mac, and CDE. I want to win :-).
6. Document *everything*. Ever Windows app has a help file,
and every GNOME app needs to as well.
2. Where will all of that take place?
All of the above will go through the GUI mailing list, and a GNOME UI
website (location yet to be determined).
3. Who will be involved?
The UI Team.
Random Programmers
The application authors.
You the user.
4. When will this start?
As soon as people start sending us their rantings about UIs.
5. What isn't fair game?
Blue Sky Stuff: Open dialogs, for one. The desktop icon model, for
another. The minimum resolution aimed for, for another. This just wastes
everyone's time, and causes a lot of headaches.
Legal:
- Having the close item in GMC's File menu exit the app if there aren't
any desktop icons.
Illegal:
- Getting rid of the desktop icons altogether.
- Expanding GMC to be an Windows style MDI app, which takes up the
entire desktop.
6. I want to help, but don't know where to start?
If you can program, you can help us out by creating patches for apps for
all the suggestions/solutions we put together.
If you can't program, you can help us out by telling us your beefs with
GNOME app X.
If you know UI design, you can help us out by coming up with solutions
to the problems pointed out by other users.
I will be putting together a team that can come up with solutions for
this, and I would *like* to hold discussions with this team in the open,
on the gnome-gui list. For those who will post to the gnome-gui list,
please don't make me reconsider :-).
7. What are some UI resources I can look at before I start coming up
with solutions?
Interface Hall of Shame/Fame
http://www.iarchitect.com/mshame.htm
This are the starting documents. Read them and follow
them religiously, because I will :-).
Ask Tog
http://www.asktog.com/menus/designMenu.html
This site provides a large group of resources for
designing an interface, including a set of abstract
rules for which examples are given in the Hall of
Shame/Fame.
Also, please read the links associated with the above sites.
For right now, discussion about this can take place on the GNOME GUI
list:
mailto:gnome-gui-list@gnome.org
(subscribing)
mailto:gnome-gui-list-request@gnome.org?subject=subscribe
Please do not bring your personal gripes to the list. I would like to
keep this as civil and restrained as possible (and not touch on the
Illegal stuff mentioned above as well) :-).
Jim Cape
http://www.jcinteractive.com
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them
pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
-- Winston Churchill
From miguel@gnu.org
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@gnu.org>
To: jlwallen@iglou.com
CC: gnome-list@gnome.org
In-reply-to: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9908011525010.7689-100000@willow.jack>
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Subject: Re: Call for constructive user criticism.
X-Windows: graphics hacking :: roman numerals : sqrt(pi)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9908011525010.7689-100000@willow.jack>
> when you say a team of *users* do these *users* have to be developers? if
> not i would be interested in being one of these *users*
Users. As is in people who use the software.
We want to make GNOME accessible for everyone. And make it very
pleasant.
So, you are welcome to help Jim assemble the proposal.
Miguel.
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@gnu.org>
To: jlwallen@iglou.com
CC: nelson-gnome@crynwr.com, gnome-list@gnome.org
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(jlwallen@iglou.com)
Subject: Re: Call for constructive user criticism.
X-Windows: It was hard to write; it should be hard to use.
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9908011550570.7765-100000@willow.jack>
> and why would you want to cut yourself off from end user opinion? that's
> a very Microsoftian philosophy - in my opinion.
I am not cutting anyone here. But being a programmer I sort of know
what I want in my applications. I just do not know what a user who
does not care about computers and wants to use a "free-software based
computer appliance" expects.
Miguel.
From miguel@gnu.org
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@gnu.org>
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Subject: Re: Call for constructive user criticism.
X-FileLength: are infinite where infinity is set to 255 characters
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9908011550570.7765-100000@willow.jack>
> anyway...not cutting down anyone's ideas. i just think that too often
> the *user's* voice is ignored. many times on this list (gnome-list that
> is) i get ignored - be it question or suggestion or announcement of a
> topic i am writing about. (if the gnome-list is strictly for devs let me
> know and i'll gladly jump ship ;-) ).
Various points:
1. That is why we are trying to organize a formal way of
getting all this feedback and making sure we can do
something about them instead of discarding it.
2. Sometimes developers have no time to implement things, or
we lack the power and commitment we would like to have.
So, there is hope. Help us make GNOME the best user interface for a
personal computer.
Miguel.
From miguel@gnu.org
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Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 17:58:11 -0500
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@gnu.org>
To: mudpup@telepath.com
CC: gnome-list@gnome.org
In-reply-to: <37A4B4C8.6AC9E08A@telepath.com> (message from Dennis Lee on Sun,
01 Aug 1999 15:57:44 -0500)
Subject: Re: Call for constructive user criticism.
X-Windows: Don't get frustrated without it.
References: <199908011818.NAA14934@erandi.nuclecu.unam.mx>
<37A4B4C8.6AC9E08A@telepath.com>
> 1. Gnome needs to improve the (install process | upgrade process) there
> are to many small files / libraries that break one another it seems like
> when you up grade one program You have to up grade another library or
> two. After that you find some other program is broken. You can not back
> out what you just done because of newly created dependencies.
This should not be the case for any release after GNOME 1.0. WE have
kept the APis backwards binary compatible, which means that if you
upgrade libraries, no application should break.
[We might have screwed up, but only in a small case]
> 2. Gnome developers need to stop stepping on one another set something
> as stable base library combine that into one binary. All programs should
> be built against the stable base or core.
That is what we have now. I have been particularly careful to be
always back-bin-compat for the libraries we release. Perhaps you are
using stuff from CVS?
Miguel.
From james@proxy4.ba.best.com
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From: "James M. Cape" <jcape@jcinteractive.com>
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To: GNOME Announce List <gnome-announce-list@gnome.org>,
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Subject: GNOME User Interface Improvement Project II
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Ok, having talked with Miguel, I have removed #5 (no blue sky
discussions) from the requirements, and refined the overview.
Basically, the GNOME UI Improvement Project will collect all the
comments/rantings/whatevers it can over the gnome-gui list, and compile
them all on it's website (Preliminary version available at
http://www.jcinteractive.com/gnome-ui/). The UI Team (a better name will
be determined, don't worry) will take those comments/rantings/whatevers
and turn them into workable UI improvements which are well designed and
thought out. Those improvements will then be forwarded to the
application authors.
So, the website is at [http://www.jcinteractive.com/gnome-ui/], and keep
those suggestions flowing! :-)
Jim Cape
http://www.jcinteractive.com
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them
pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
-- Winston Churchill
From msf@redhat.com
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To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: GNOME Usability Improvements - Fix the window manager!
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Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 22:09:57 -0400
From: Michael Fulbright <msf@redhat.com>
I applaud the recent rejuvenation of the GNOME UI effort. I hope that the
people working on it can give us regular drafts for comments. I would
advise them not to try and make it too much of a "tell us what you want
and we'll add it all" - we need a few people with UI experience to
draft a proposal, and then get comments from everyone. Otherwise you'll get
what we had last time.
The best way I can see to help usability FAST is to get the KDE/GNOME
window manager spec ironed out. I think the worst aspect of the current
GNOME desktop to new users (according to all the feedback email I
get since my email address is in every GNOME RPM :) is the abitrary
distinction between the GNOME desktop and the window manager. Currently
the GNOME desktop and the window manager fight over things like
background settings and mouse clicks on the desktop. Some window managers
claim to support GNOME, and yet when in 'GNOME mode' they throw up their
own panel equivalent, icons, etc. The words 'window manager' should never
show up on the desktop imho - users should not have to learn about them.
The worst offender are themes - on the Red Hat 6.0 tour I talked to alot
of people about GNOME and KDE. Most people seem to perceive more features
in GNOME, but did not like having to deal with the window manager. In KDE
this is not an issue. I had numerous people ask me why they have to
configure TWO themes. I think the GNOME project should very seriously consider
pursuing (with great vigor) a window manager for GNOME that gives us the
level of control over the environment that allows us to hide the fact
a window manager is even running from the novice user.
Note I have advocated two things:
1) Get the spec worked out in common for both the GNOME and KDE environments.
A window manager author will then have a single target and it is
much more likely window managers will properly work with both.
2) For the much larger class of potential new users (compared to the small
current user base of Linux) we should have a window manager we have
designed that works closely with GNOME (via CORBA) that completely
hides the window manager from the user. Themes will be shared with
gtk+ themes, the issue of who owns the background will be gone, the
pager and task list applets won't have to use broken X11 tricks to
get window lists, etc.
Of all the reasons people pick GNOME versus KDE, I think the fact that
GNOME is supposedly window manager independent is very low on the list of
reasons. It certainly is not one of the top three. I think its time
to consider making a distinction between "GNOME compliant" window manager
and "GNOME enhanced" window managers. The later is what a newbie will
want to use.
We can satisfy both the seasoned Linux users who have a favorite window manager
as well as the new user who just wants it to work. I think in terms of
usability we have a great deal to address for the later when in comes to
the window manager.
Next on the list would be the file manager, but this email is already too long.
Dr Mike
From jlwallen@iglou.com
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From: "jack wallen, jr" <jlwallen@iglou.com>
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Subject: Re: GNOME Usability Improvements - Fix the window manager!
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as a *user* of gnome here's what i think is necessary for Gnome (remember
this is an opinion ;-) ):
Applications/Applets:
Office Suite
Easier to use dial up control
More simplistic mount/unmout of removable media
E-mail client capable of the configuration abilities of, say, Pine
Better networking interface (akin, but better, than Network
Neighborhood)
UI:
Ability for normal user to edit menu entries
Printer control in Control Center
Preview button actually do something in Control Center's theme
selector
System:
Friendlier upgradability
Less core files ;-)
These are just thoughts that popped into my head. some of them may
already be in progress and some of them may be crap. like i said - they
are just thoughts. ;-)
J A C K W A L L E N, J R.
get jack'd @ techrepublic.com get L I N U X or get lost
-----
Son, this is the only time I'm ever gonna say this. It is not okay to
lose.
-- Homer Simpson
Dead Putting Society
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
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To: mawarkus@t-online.de (Matthias Warkus)
Cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: GNOME Usability Improvements - Fix the window manager!
References: <199908021836.OAA03276@avatar.labs.redhat.com>
<Pine.LNX.4.10.9908021441410.4673-100000@willow.jack> <19990803003041.B3205@audrey>
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
Date: 03 Aug 1999 11:49:59 -0500
In-Reply-To: mawarkus@t-online.de's message of "Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:30:42 +0200"
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> > Office Suite
We are working on it. Check http://www.gnome.org/gw.html
--
miguel@gnu.org