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From: Paul Warren <pdw@ferret.lmh.ox.ac.uk>
Reply-To: Paul Warren <pdw@ferret.lmh.ox.ac.uk>
To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Window managers
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There is one thing that really bugs me about gnome - the fact that it
doesn't have its own window manager, by which I mean, there is no Window
Manager with the gnome/gtk look and feel.
I use Window Maker, and I have tried E. If I were a new user looking at
gnome, I would want to know why I had two completely different
look & feels on my desktop. (eg. right click, then middle click in E -
two completely different menu styles).
New users are not interested in the difference between a Window Manager
and Gnome, and are not going to be grateful for the "choice". I am not
suggesting that Gnome should tie itself to a single window manager, but
that there should be a "gwm" to fill a similar role as kwm does to kde.
So are there any plans to write such a window manager? I have been
considering doing it myself, but I don't think my gtk knowledge is up to
it. gtkwm on www.gnome.org seems to be abandoned vapourware AFAICT.
On a related point, for a project that claims "No religion - pick any
window manager", gnome appears to be becoming increasingly tied to
Enlightenment. I see that the RPMs now have E as a requirement. I see
this as a bad thing. E is not a requirement of Gnome. I shouldn't have
to rpm --nodeps a standard Gnome installation should I? E has some very
strong opposition, certainly where I am. I don't personally know anyone
who likes it or finds in a usable wm. Clearly lots of people do, but it
indicates that it is very important not to push people into using a single
WM.
Any comments?
Paul
From rhult@hem2.passagen.se Fri May 12 00:01:33 2000
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Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:11:33 +0200 (CEST)
From: Richard Hult <rhult@hem2.passagen.se>
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To: Paul Warren <pdw@ferret.lmh.ox.ac.uk>
cc: gnome-list@gnome.org, recipient list not shown: ;
Subject: Re: Window managers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990427132553.22505C-100000@ferret.lmh.ox.ac.uk>
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> So are there any plans to write such a window manager? I have been
> considering doing it myself, but I don't think my gtk knowledge is up to
> it. gtkwm on www.gnome.org seems to be abandoned vapourware AFAICT.
Make a gtk-lookalike theme for e or windowmaker :)
> On a related point, for a project that claims "No religion - pick any
> window manager", gnome appears to be becoming increasingly tied to
> Enlightenment. I see that the RPMs now have E as a requirement. I see
> this as a bad thing. E is not a requirement of Gnome. I shouldn't have
RedHat has chosen to do it this way, to make sure that the user always
have at least one gnome-compliant window manager. There has been variuos
discussions here on this matter.
What we should remember is that the rpms are something that RHAD labs are
providing is kind of a bonus. They are not part of the gnome project. If
anyone wants rpms that are packaged in a different way, they are free to
do so...
Just my 0.02 whatever,
Richard
From randhol@pvv.org
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To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: Window managers
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9904271506460.608-100000@frenzy.hemmet.s-hem.chalmers.se>
From: Preben Randhol <randhol@pvv.org>
Date: 27 Apr 1999 15:31:50 +0200
In-Reply-To: Preben Randhol's message of "27 Apr 1999 15:23:31 +0200"
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Richard Hult <rhult@hem2.passagen.se> writes:
| RedHat has chosen to do it this way, to make sure that the user always
| have at least one gnome-compliant window manager. There has been variuos
This must be one of the more lame excuses I have heard in a long
time. To me it looks more like one is trying to push Enligthenment. I
have tried enlightenment and gnome and if that was my first encounter
with gnome, I probably would have uninstalled the lot and used KDE or
some such.
--
Preben Randhol «There are three things you can do
[randhol@pvv.org] to a woman. You can love her, suffer
[http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/] for her or turn her into litterature.»
- Justine, by Lawrence Durrell
From randhol@pvv.org
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Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:53:08 +0200
To: Richard Hult <rhult@hem2.passagen.se>
Cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: Window managers
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9904271533380.608-100000@frenzy.hemmet.s-hem.chalmers.se>
From: Preben Randhol <randhol@pvv.org>
Date: 27 Apr 1999 15:53:08 +0200
In-Reply-To: Richard Hult's message of "Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:40:13 +0200 (CEST)"
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Richard Hult <rhult@hem2.passagen.se> writes:
| I don't think that's the reason. Just think of a newbie, he installs the
| rpms, and no gnome-compliant wm. Some things don't work properly, like the
| pager. Since he has no clue about windowmanagers and X etc, he won't
| understand a thing. If the installation forces him to install E, he can
| start gnome and get to know the environment. When he understands more, he
| can change the wm to something else, icewm or windowmaker etc.
Then it is much better to use a wizard like the one that was suggested
earlier. (If you don't remember, there was a suggestion that one made
a wizard that warned newbies not to run gnome as root, but create an
users account)
When one start say the panel one could get a warning that this is not
an Gnome complient WM and suggest that one installes one of those who
are. Of course one should be able to turn of this warning.
| Have you tried icewm? It's a nice, fast, gnome-compliant wm.
and ugly. No I'm content with Window Maker :-)
--
Preben Randhol «There are three things you can do
[randhol@pvv.org] to a woman. You can love her, suffer
[http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/] for her or turn her into litterature.»
- Justine, by Lawrence Durrell
From msf@redhat.com
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To: Preben Randhol <randhol@pvv.org>
cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: Window managers
In-Reply-To: Message from Preben Randhol <randhol@pvv.org>
of "27 Apr 1999 15:31:50 +0200." <m3d80qkx4p.fsf@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no>
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Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:06:47 -0400
From: Michael Fulbright <msf@redhat.com>
randhol@pvv.org said:
> This must be one of the more lame excuses I have heard in a long time.
> To me it looks more like one is trying to push Enligthenment. I have
> tried enlightenment and gnome and if that was my first encounter with
> gnome, I probably would have uninstalled the lot and used KDE or some
> such.
This is no lame excuse to push enlightenment - enlightenment is the
only WM out of the box to work properly with GNOME, and has a nice GUI
configuration tool as well. WindowMaker is not far behind, but when I made
the RPMs it still did not share desktop buttons with gmc properly.
And icewm does not have a nice GUI configuration tool, so I don't
think its appropriate for newbie users.
RHAD Labs wrote a window manager capplet so it is trivial to switch
the window manager once you install GNOME. Should only take about 6
mouse clicks to switch to WindowMaker or any other window manager you like.
If we wanted to promote a particular window manager we would not have
spent time making it easy to switch.
I packaged the RPMS so any newbie could install them. The enlightenment
requirement in gnome-core is to make absolutely sure a newbie will get
a window manager that actually works WELL with GNOME. The most important
thing to me is that new users try Linux. I have no personal preferences
in what window manager people run. At worst someone has an extra 4 megs
of disk space used by enlightenment. I'm sure there are bigger wastes of
space on a typical Linux system.
Dr Mike
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
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To: Preben Randhol <randhol@pvv.org>
Cc: Richard Hult <rhult@hem2.passagen.se>, gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: Window managers
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9904271533380.608-100000@frenzy.hemmet.s-hem.chalmers.se>
<m3btgakw57.fsf@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no>
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
Date: 27 Apr 1999 19:24:54 -0500
In-Reply-To: Preben Randhol's message of "27 Apr 1999 15:53:08 +0200"
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User-Agent: Gnus/5.070075 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.75) XEmacs/20.4 (Emerald)
> Then it is much better to use a wizard like the one that was suggested
> earlier. (If you don't remember, there was a suggestion that one made
> a wizard that warned newbies not to run gnome as root, but create an
> users account)
Let me see if I understand:
1. Adding the dependency to the RPM took a 1 line change.
2. We do not have any wizard tool to do this, so we need a
wizard tool that will take a few hundred lines of code. I
think you can do this in 10 minutes right?
We are eagerly waiting for your code.
Miguel.
--
miguel@gnu.org
From randhol@pvv.org
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To: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
Cc: Richard Hult <rhult@hem2.passagen.se>, gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: Window managers
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9904271533380.608-100000@frenzy.hemmet.s-hem.chalmers.se>
<m3btgakw57.fsf@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no> <s8u2u11tih.fsf@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx>
From: Preben Randhol <randhol@pvv.org>
Date: 28 Apr 1999 09:20:25 +0200
In-Reply-To: Miguel de Icaza's message of "27 Apr 1999 19:24:54 -0500"
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Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx> writes:
| > Then it is much better to use a wizard like the one that was suggested
| > earlier. (If you don't remember, there was a suggestion that one made
| > a wizard that warned newbies not to run gnome as root, but create an
| > users account)
|
| Let me see if I understand:
|
| 1. Adding the dependency to the RPM took a 1 line change.
|
| 2. We do not have any wizard tool to do this, so we need a
| wizard tool that will take a few hundred lines of code. I
| think you can do this in 10 minutes right?
|
| We are eagerly waiting for your code.
No need, the code is already there as somebody mentioned. One already
gets a warning if the WM is not complaint. This is enough one do not
need an animated wizard or any fancy stuff like that just a warning
dialog.
But what you are saying is that Gnome is dependant on Enlightenment,
which I thought it wasn't. Silly me. I though much of the KDE bashing
was that they had their own WM and that one couldn't use the software
on others. This was not to be the case with GNOME if I remember
correctly.
--
Preben Randhol «There are three things you can do
[randhol@pvv.org] to a woman. You can love her, suffer
[http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/] for her or turn her into litterature.»
- Justine, by Lawrence Durrell
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 01:50:18 -0500
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: randhol@pvv.org
CC: rhult@hem2.passagen.se, gnome-list@gnome.org
In-reply-to: <m390bdb492.fsf@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no> (message from Preben
Randhol on 28 Apr 1999 09:20:25 +0200)
Subject: Re: Window managers
X-Lost: In case of doubt, make it sound convincing
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9904271533380.608-100000@frenzy.hemmet.s-hem.chalmers.se>
<m3btgakw57.fsf@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no> <s8u2u11tih.fsf@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx>
<m390bdb492.fsf@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no>
> But what you are saying is that Gnome is dependant on Enlightenment,
> which I thought it wasn't. Silly me.
You are reading my text, but you are not trying to understand it. You
are trying to prove your point without paying attention to the facts.
Fact is: the GNOME RPMs produced by Red Hat depend on E to be
installed, because the people at Red Hat doing the RPMs believe that
it is on the best end-user interested to provide a working system by
default for these people. Seasoned users can always fix this problem
themselves.
Now, the GNOME *team* only provides code in source code format. It is
up to system integrators (like Red Hat) or volunteers (like the ones
that contributed Debian, Slackware packages) to package GNOME in a
easy to use format.
Now, GNOME works with a number of window managers. For example, I use
fvwm2-gnome myself and my friend Arturo uses icewm. We are both
compiling gnome from source code and we do customize it to our own
needs.
I hope this explains the situation.
Miguel.