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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:55:11 +0000
From: "Greg S. Hayes" <sdc@choice.net>
Organization: Syncomm Communications
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Subject: GMC: Recreating the best console file manager for X
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As gnome increases in popularity among distributors, I feel that it is
important to discuss some issues in refining gmc (which will, in most
cases, be the most commonly used component). After looking around for a
gmc mailing list I came up empty handed. An mc mailing list exists, but
I feel that this topic would be more properly addressed with other gnome
developers. This thread is set up to bring about an open discussion
about what everyone feels is necessary for gmc's success.
In my experience with file managers under X, I feel that gmc is lacking
some important features that need to be addressed before gnome can
conquer the world. Most notably is simple visual configuration (or lack
there of:)) in gmc. It seems as if there is no easy way for a
non-expirenced Linux user to bind file types to applications and icons.
In my opinion, this specific problem should be examined by observing how
other file managers cope with the situation. One of the best efforts
I've seen recently is the one presented in kfm. Kfm uses a global
directory of mime types as well as a a local directory (allowing users
to override the global bindings.) The mime type files are humanly
readable and configured graphicaly when selecting properties of a mime
file. Also, a file-->new-->mimetype menu entry makes it simple to add
and configure a new mimetype for your filemanager. An exapmle of the
file follows:
[KDE Desktop Entry]
MimeType=image/tiff
Comment=TIFF Image
DefaultApp=
Icon=file-dot-tif.xpm
Type=MimeType
Patterns=*.tif;*.TIF;*.TIFF;*.tiff;
As you can see the file is easily understood and similar to existing
gnome .desktop entries. The directory hierarchy (see below) the files
live in makes it easy to locate and add the new types.
mimelnk
________________|___________________
| | | | | |
application audio image inode text video
Does anyone feel that this would be the best approach? Why? or why not?
Final Note: The best way you can help contribute to the future of gmc
(and gnome) is to contribute ideas and discuss flaws (without stepping
on too many toes:)), so, if you feel up to it, follow up this post with
other suggestions about gmc. For example, how would you feel about gmc
including an XV like "Visual Schnauser" that would turn image formats
readable by imlib into icons for easy thumbnail previewing. Or what
about "liquid filesystems" (I've seen this mentioned somewhere before...
what exactaly is a "liquid filesystem" anyway?)
Later,
Greg
From pauljohn@ukans.edu
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On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, Greg S. Hayes wrote:
I tried to grab text of Greg's message, but for some reason it didn't
come with the reply to. Anyway, I want to echo his comments on gmc.
It ought to be the best gnome app and unless it is as good as, say,
Win95 Explorer, Gnome will be in trouble from the outset. As a user,
I have these thoughts about it.
1. Configuration. Please look at the little program called "sfm".
It is really a pleasure to use and configure.
http://www.chez.com/prigaux/sfm.html
If you try to execute a file and it doesn't know its type, then it asks you how
to execute it, and then it remembers. You can easily change, of course. I
disagree with Greg that the kfm approach is the best, I guess. SFM does
not have bells and whistles, such as the ability to look into tarballs and rpms,
but the elementary functionality seem to me, well, just about perfect. One
thing I like best about it is that it makes use of all kinds of shift
and control key modifiers to significanly expand user control over how
files are executed.
SFM can also rename files "in place". Just click on the file, hit F2,
and you can edit the name. No rename menu panels or other abuse.
2. The file display ought to indicate space left on disk and also total space
used by the current directory. Without that, users can overflow filessystems
and not find out until it is too late.
3. The gmc icon used when dragging and dropping files is too large. It needs
a sharp point so we can drop files on directory names without expanding them.
I kept getting files randomly scattered around
with the gmc from the CVS tree, then I realized it no longer defaults
to ask for confirmations...
Paul E. Johnson pauljohn@ukans.edu
Dept. of Political Science http://lark.cc.ukans.edu/~pauljohn
University of Kansas Office: (913) 864-9086
Lawrence, Kansas 66045 FAX: (913) 864-5700
From bwidmann@tks.fh-sbg.ac.at
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From: Bruno Widmann <bwidmann@tks.fh-sbg.ac.at>
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To: "Greg S. Hayes" <sdc@choice.net>
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Subject: Re: [Fwd: GMC: Recreating the best console file manager for X]
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i think gmc should have same layout & basic design as console-mc, because
that's allmost perfect (as was norton commander for dos). Add drag&drop to
that, but don't remove functionality...
Kind of like windowscommander, which does that under windows, and is by
far more usable than win-explorer
as for mime-types, shouldn't that go into some linux-standart thing? I see
a mime-support package here on my system...
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From: Mark Galassi <rosalia@cygnus.com>
To: Bruno Widmann <bwidmann@tks.fh-sbg.ac.at>
Cc: "Greg S. Hayes" <sdc@choice.net>, gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Fwd: GMC: Recreating the best console file manager for X]
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Bruno> i think gmc should have same layout & basic design as
Bruno> console-mc, because that's allmost perfect (as was norton
Bruno> commander for dos). Add drag&drop to that, but don't remove
Bruno> functionality...
I disagree: I never used DOS or norton commander, and to me it mc/gmc
not intuitive at all.
I would recommend a mac-like interface for ease of use.
From syncomm@mail1.choice.net
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Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 22:44:08 +0000
From: "Greg S. Hayes" <sdc@choice.net>
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To: Bruno Widmann <bwidmann@tks.fh-sbg.ac.at>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: GMC: Recreating the best console file manager for X]
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Bruno Widmann wrote:
>
> i think gmc should have same layout & basic design as console-mc, because
> that's allmost perfect (as was norton commander for dos). Add drag&drop to
> that, but don't remove functionality...
>
> Kind of like windowscommander, which does that under windows, and is by
> far more usable than win-explorer
I really like the idea of being able to have two panes to work in like
the console mc. But, I know some people will complain :) That does sound
like a great idea for an option however.
Im thinking about cleaning up and redesinging the file properties
dialog. I have a few NeXT screenshots of the file inspector (will post
them at request) that make the current gmc file dialog look really
sloppy.
Anyone else think we need a gmc developer list?
Greg
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> I would recommend a mac-like interface for ease of use.
Ive never used a mac, what is a mac-like file manager interface?
From pseelig@goofy.zdv.Uni-Mainz.de
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On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, Bruno Widmann wrote:
> i think gmc should have same layout & basic design as console-mc, because
> that's allmost perfect (as was norton commander for dos). Add drag&drop to
> that, but don't remove functionality...
>
I just wanted to step up front to say that i agree with your statement.
I think that the removal of the traditional MC (or NC) layout is actually
a very sad loss regarding functionality. The bad thing about all those
single pane layouts like the Win95 Explorer or KFM are a step backwards in
true useability because they make you depend upon using a mouse (try
copying a few files in MC and then again with GMC to see what i mean) and
thus taking away choice instead of adding to it.
Ciao, P. *8^)
--
Paul Seelig pseelig@goofy.zdv.uni-mainz.de
African Music Archive - Institute for Ethnology and Africa Studies
Johannes Gutenberg-University - Forum 6 - 55099 Mainz/Germany
Our WWW pages to be visited at "http://www.uni-mainz.de/~bender"
From jpablo@netservice.com.mx
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Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 18:59:45 +0100
From: Juan Pablo Romero <jpablo@netservice.com.mx>
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I wish there would be place for both worlds; lets make it a user decision.
What you think?
Personally i think each style can be better than the other, depending of the
task you are doing.
Juan Pablo
Paul Seelig wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, Bruno Widmann wrote:
>
> > i think gmc should have same layout & basic design as console-mc, because
> > that's allmost perfect (as was norton commander for dos). Add drag&drop to
> > that, but don't remove functionality...
> >
> I just wanted to step up front to say that i agree with your statement.
>
> I think that the removal of the traditional MC (or NC) layout is actually
> a very sad loss regarding functionality. The bad thing about all those
> single pane layouts like the Win95 Explorer or KFM are a step backwards in
> true useability because they make you depend upon using a mouse (try
> copying a few files in MC and then again with GMC to see what i mean) and
> thus taking away choice instead of adding to it.
>
> Ciao, P. *8^)
> --
> Paul Seelig pseelig@goofy.zdv.uni-mainz.de
> African Music Archive - Institute for Ethnology and Africa Studies
> Johannes Gutenberg-University - Forum 6 - 55099 Mainz/Germany
> Our WWW pages to be visited at "http://www.uni-mainz.de/~bender"
>
> --
> To unsubscribe: mail gnome-list-request@gnome.org with
> "unsubscribe" as the Subject.
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: sdc@choice.net
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In-reply-to: <35D760D7.616508C7@choice.net> (sdc@choice.net)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: GMC: Recreating the best console file manager for X]]
X-Home: is where the cat is
> Im thinking about cleaning up and redesinging the file properties
> dialog. I have a few NeXT screenshots of the file inspector (will post
> them at request) that make the current gmc file dialog look really
> sloppy.
>
> Anyone else think we need a gmc developer list?
there is a midnight commander development list:
mc-devel@nuclecu.unam.mx
Miguel.
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Juan Pablo Romero wrote:
>
> I wish there would be place for both worlds; lets make it a user decision.
>
> What you think?
>
> Personally i think each style can be better than the other, depending of the
> task you are doing.
Take a look at the NeXT file manager (see screenshots at
http://www3.pair.com/mccarthy/nextstep/intro.htmld/Workspace.html )
I'm not sure but I believe this file manager supported icon, unix
listing style, and multi pane browsing.
Greg
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From: "Michael J. Mitchell" <mitch@gw2.redback.com.au>
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Subject: Re: [Fwd: GMC: Recreating the best console file manager for X]
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Greg S. Hayes wrote:
>
> Juan Pablo Romero wrote:
> >
> > I wish there would be place for both worlds; lets make it a user decision.
> >
> > What you think?
> >
> > Personally i think each style can be better than the other, depending of the
> > task you are doing.
>
> Take a look at the NeXT file manager (see screenshots at
> http://www3.pair.com/mccarthy/nextstep/intro.htmld/Workspace.html )
>
> I'm not sure but I believe this file manager supported icon, unix
> listing style, and multi pane browsing.
>
> Greg
>
> --
> To unsubscribe: mail gnome-list-request@gnome.org with
> "unsubscribe" as the Subject.
It did and does. :-)
Cheers,
mitch
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: sdc@choice.net
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In-reply-to: <35D5525F.1FBBA1EA@choice.net> (sdc@choice.net)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: GMC: Recreating the best console file manager for X]
X-Windows: graphics hacking :: roman numerals : sqrt(pi)
> In my experience with file managers under X, I feel that gmc is lacking
> some important features that need to be addressed before gnome can
> conquer the world. Most notably is simple visual configuration (or lack
> there of:)) in gmc.
I am ready to take your input. If you have an extensive list of
features you would like to see in gmc, mail those directly to
miguel@tirania.nuclecu.unam.mx (note, that it is a special mail box
for archiving all of the users requests).
> It seems as if there is no easy way for a non-expirenced Linux user
> to bind file types to applications and icons.
Yes, that is correct, and it is trivial to fix.
Miguel.
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Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:58:41 -0500
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:58:41 -0500
Message-Id: <199808181858.NAA19565@athena.nuclecu.unam.mx>
From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: pauljohn@ukans.edu
CC: sdc@choice.net, gnome-list@gnome.org
In-reply-to:
<Pine.LNX.4.02.9808150959030.30604-100000@pinnacle.lawrence.ks.us>
(message from Paul Johnson on Sat, 15 Aug 1998 10:10:02 -0500 (CDT))
Subject: Re: [Fwd: GMC: Recreating the best console file manager for X]
X-Unix: is friendly, it is just selective about who its friends are.
> SFM can also rename files "in place". Just click on the file, hit F2,
> and you can edit the name. No rename menu panels or other abuse.
This is a planned feature for gmc.
Miguel.