From nuke@bayside.net
Received: (qmail 12213 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 00:08:45 -0000
Received: from nuklear.steelcity.net (208.22.42.104)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 00:08:45 -0000
Received: from localhost (nuke@localhost)
by nuklear.steelcity.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id DAA00938
for <gnome-list@gnome.org>; Mon, 18 May 1998 03:59:29 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: nuklear.steelcity.net: nuke owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 03:59:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: <nuke@bayside.net>
X-Sender: nuke@nuklear.steelcity.net
To: Gnome list <gnome-list@gnome.org>
Subject: gtk icewm?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980518035655.873E-100000@nuklear.steelcity.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
from what we've seen in the lists, icewm will probably be the first to be
gnomified. this is great and all, but how would an icewm that uses the gtk
and gnome libs instead of its own pseudo-toolkit? of course, from my
experience (can't speak for anyone else), icewm's no-bloat system is nice
when comparing menu popup speeds to say, gtk.. but IMO icewm is
currently too win95ish for Gnome.
_ _ __ __ _ _ _
| / |/ /_ __/ /_____ | Nuke Skyjumper |
| / / // / '_/ -_) | "Master of the Farce" |
|_ /_/|_/\_,_/_/\_\\__/ _|_ nuke@bayside.net _|
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
Received: (qmail 20160 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 05:17:46 -0000
Received: from athena.nuclecu.unam.mx (132.248.29.9)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 05:17:46 -0000
Received: (from miguel@localhost)
by athena.nuclecu.unam.mx (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA07509;
Mon, 18 May 1998 00:15:07 -0500
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 00:15:07 -0500
Message-Id: <199805180515.AAA07509@athena.nuclecu.unam.mx>
From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: nuke@bayside.net
CC: gnome-list@gnome.org
In-reply-to: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980518035655.873E-100000@nuklear.steelcity.net>
(nuke@bayside.net)
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
X-Windows: The joke that kills.
> when comparing menu popup speeds to say, gtk.. but IMO icewm is
> currently too win95ish for Gnome.
I believe that arguing on the basis of how similar something is to
Windows 95 is wrong. We should be basing our arguments on the
capabilities and the benefits.
For example, what is wrong with Windows 95 user interface? Lets focus
on fixing those problems, not on dismissing any feature because it
happens to be present on Windows 95.
Miguel.
From rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu
Received: (qmail 4939 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 06:06:50 -0000
Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (root@128.135.12.3)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 06:06:50 -0000
Received: from midway.uchicago.edu (root@midway.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.12])
by haven.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA12636;
Mon, 18 May 1998 01:06:45 -0500 (CDT)
Received: from harper.uchicago.edu (4152@harper.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.7])
by midway.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id BAA28185;
Mon, 18 May 1998 01:05:26 -0500 (CDT)
Received: from localhost (rhpennin@localhost) by harper.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3)
with SMTP id BAA17886; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:05:26 -0500 (CDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: harper.uchicago.edu: rhpennin owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 01:05:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: robert havoc pennington <rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu>
Sender: rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu
Reply-To: robert havoc pennington <rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu>
To: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
In-Reply-To: <199805180515.AAA07509@athena.nuclecu.unam.mx>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980518004642.27181b-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 18 May 1998, Miguel de Icaza wrote:
>
> > when comparing menu popup speeds to say, gtk.. but IMO icewm is
> > currently too win95ish for Gnome.
>
> I believe that arguing on the basis of how similar something is to
> Windows 95 is wrong. We should be basing our arguments on the
> capabilities and the benefits.
>
Yes! This is an excellent point. Just because the overall Windows OS is
kind of yucky doesn't mean we can't steal shamelessly from their
highly-paid UI researchers. We should copy Windows, Mac, NeXT, X, and
everything else we can think of to create a nice, familiar synthesis with
the best of each. In a real sense Different == Bad when it comes to look
and feel.
That said, I would love to see icewm borrow a few drawing routines from
Gtk for purely cosmetic reasons; it'd be neat if the task bar buttons
looked like Gtk buttons, and the "start" menu looked like a Gtk menu. I
don't know if actually using Gtk would be the fastest or best way to
achieve this or not. I guess I'd vote against using Gtk since icewm is
already fast, small, and stable - it ain't broke, don't fix. Using Gtk
would enable themes and so on but if you want that there's always E.
I think the icewm author is an excellent UI designer; it's clean,
consistent, attractive, fast, easy, and almost bug-free. It has all the
features you need and no more, and a professional polish I haven't seen in
any other wm except olvwm (though I haven't tried mwm/CDE). It made me
very happy when he said he'd Gnomify. We should copy icewm, not screw it
up.
Havoc
From raster@redhat.com
Received: (qmail 30655 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 14:34:47 -0000
Received: from lacrosse.redhat.com (root@207.175.42.154)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 14:34:47 -0000
Received: from trode.redhat.com (root@trode.redhat.com [199.183.24.80])
by lacrosse.redhat.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01249;
Mon, 18 May 1998 10:34:45 -0400
Received: from redhat.com (raster@trode [127.0.0.1])
by trode.redhat.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04879;
Mon, 18 May 1998 10:33:44 -0400
From: raster@redhat.com
Message-Id: <199805181433.KAA04879@trode.redhat.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 10:33:43 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: raster@redhat.com
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
To: rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu
cc: miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx, gnome-list@gnome.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980518004642.27181b-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On 18 May, robert havoc pennington shouted:
->
-> On Mon, 18 May 1998, Miguel de Icaza wrote:
-> >
-> > > when comparing menu popup speeds to say, gtk.. but IMO icewm is
-> > > currently too win95ish for Gnome.
-> >
-> > I believe that arguing on the basis of how similar something is to
-> > Windows 95 is wrong. We should be basing our arguments on the
-> > capabilities and the benefits.
-> >
->
-> Yes! This is an excellent point. Just because the overall Windows OS is
-> kind of yucky doesn't mean we can't steal shamelessly from their
-> highly-paid UI researchers. We should copy Windows, Mac, NeXT, X, and
-> everything else we can think of to create a nice, familiar synthesis with
-> the best of each. In a real sense Different == Bad when it comes to look
-> and feel.
again a misnoma. different is neither bad nor good - it depends what
new stuff you have. if beinf different was bad a GUi would have never
been invented - terminals wouldnt exits.,. we'd be uing computers with
switches and led's as output. Being diferent and having the guts to try
somehitng new drives innovation and features. don't be afraid of being
different. Embrace it.
The ramannt wave of "lets COPY a commercial GUI" that is spreading
through the linux world is rather sad - it shows that there is little
imagination and any form of resarche or willingness to branch off and
at the very least TRY and do better. It is this effor of trying to do
better and probably in the process look different and act differently
that is goign ot differetiate GNOME from KDE and MacOs and windows etc.
It is goign to be what attracts people to it - a GUi that has FRESH
ideas - not just the old ones recycled. This may involve bastardisting
current ideas and meshing them - but do nto restrict ourselves to what
has alreday been done.
--
--------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------------
raster@rasterman.com /\___ /\ ___/||\___ ____/|/\___ raster@redhat.com
Carsten Haitzler | _ //__\\ __||_ __\\ ___|| _ / Red Hat Advanced
218/21 Conner Drive || // __ \\_ \ | | \ _/_|| / Development Labs
Chapel Hill NC 27514 USA ||\\\/ \//__/ |_| /___/||\\ 919 547 0012 ext 282
+1 (919) 929 9443, 801 4392 For pure Enlightenmenthttp://www.rasterman.com/
From rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu
Received: (qmail 19561 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 14:54:35 -0000
Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (root@128.135.12.3)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 14:54:35 -0000
Received: from midway.uchicago.edu (root@midway.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.12])
by haven.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA05444;
Mon, 18 May 1998 09:54:33 -0500 (CDT)
Received: from harper.uchicago.edu (4152@harper.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.7])
by midway.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id JAA02399;
Mon, 18 May 1998 09:52:16 -0500 (CDT)
Received: from localhost (rhpennin@localhost) by harper.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3)
with SMTP id JAA13986; Mon, 18 May 1998 09:52:15 -0500 (CDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: harper.uchicago.edu: rhpennin owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 09:52:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: robert havoc pennington <rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu>
Sender: rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu
To: raster@redhat.com
cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
In-Reply-To: <199805181433.KAA04879@trode.redhat.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980518094040.2033A-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 18 May 1998 raster@redhat.com wrote:
>
> again a misnoma. different is neither bad nor good - it depends what
> new stuff you have. if beinf different was bad a GUi would have never
> been invented - terminals wouldnt exits.,. we'd be uing computers with
> switches and led's as output. Being diferent and having the guts to try
> somehitng new drives innovation and features. don't be afraid of being
> different. Embrace it.
>
I agree in principle, but in practice it seems like this sentiment mostly
results in difference on the application level, much of it kind of
gratuitous (e.g. button styles, where the menu items are, etc.). If our
difference is guided by a good plan and is implemented across Gnome, and
really truly makes things better, then I'm all for it.
At this stage there's all kinds of inconsistency in Gnome apps; I think
that's good, because lots of things are getting tried out, and the ideas
are flowing. Eventually though, IMHO, we want to pick the best of the
ideas and impose uniformity. When deciding which ideas to go with, I think
we should go with preexisting familiar ideas by default, and be different
only if there's a clear tangible benefit or no precedent to base the
decision on.
So basically all I'm saying is let's not be different just to be different
- let's have a good reason. And if all major GUI platforms do something
one way I think we should do it the same way, because people are familiar
with it and those platforms are based on all kinds of usability studies we
can't possibly do ourselves.
Havoc
From chris@eunet.ch
Received: (qmail 4178 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 15:12:11 -0000
Received: from mail.eunet.ch (146.228.10.7)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 15:12:11 -0000
Received: from dial.eunet.ch (dyna-azh-63.dial.eunet.ch [193.72.22.185])
by mail.eunet.ch (8.8.6/1.34) via ESMTP id PAA08104; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:11:11 GMT
env-from (henrici@dial.eunet.ch)
Sender: chris@eunet.ch
Message-ID: <35605039.F10DF0D7@dial.eunet.ch>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 15:14:01 +0000
From: Christoph Henrici <henrici@dial.eunet.ch>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.32 i586)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: raster@redhat.com
CC: rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu, miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx, gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
References: <199805181433.KAA04879@trode.redhat.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
raster@redhat.com wrote:
>
> On 18 May, robert havoc pennington shouted:
> ->
> -> On Mon, 18 May 1998, Miguel de Icaza wrote:
> -> >
> -> > > when comparing menu popup speeds to say, gtk.. but IMO icewm is
> -> > > currently too win95ish for Gnome.
> -> >
> -> > I believe that arguing on the basis of how similar something is to
> -> > Windows 95 is wrong. We should be basing our arguments on the
> -> > capabilities and the benefits.
> -> >
> ->
> -> Yes! This is an excellent point. Just because the overall Windows OS is
> -> kind of yucky doesn't mean we can't steal shamelessly from their
> -> highly-paid UI researchers. We should copy Windows, Mac, NeXT, X, and
> -> everything else we can think of to create a nice, familiar synthesis with
> -> the best of each. In a real sense Different == Bad when it comes to look
> -> and feel.
>
> again a misnoma. different is neither bad nor good - it depends what
> new stuff you have. if beinf different was bad a GUi would have never
> been invented - terminals wouldnt exits.,. we'd be uing computers with
> switches and led's as output. Being diferent and having the guts to try
> somehitng new drives innovation and features. don't be afraid of being
> different. Embrace it.
>
> The ramannt wave of "lets COPY a commercial GUI" that is spreading
> through the linux world is rather sad - it shows that there is little
> imagination and any form of resarche or willingness to branch off and
> at the very least TRY and do better. It is this effor of trying to do
> better and probably in the process look different and act differently
> that is goign ot differetiate GNOME from KDE and MacOs and windows etc.
Abso(u)ltely .... because what MS did just that: "copy a commercial GUI"
...
to the better for the MS world maybe ....yes, but the better the "real"
world, i doubt .....
Yes, recycling the same old ideas over and over again, really does not
bring us any further..... like MS doing with IE -> like browser
adlibitum ....
(i actually have enough of browsers......)
NeXTStep was not really that different ... in some areas maybe an
enhancement to the Finder (.... more and more intuitive drag and
drop...)
but in other area's really worse ..... (screen real estate etc.)
> It is goign to be what attracts people to it - a GUi that has FRESH
> ideas - not just the old ones recycled. This may involve bastardisting
> current ideas and meshing them - but do nto restrict ourselves to what
> has alreday been done.
One of the problems, certainly is, ideas versus what can be done today
...
but still .....
>
> --
> --------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------------
> raster@rasterman.com /\___ /\ ___/||\___ ____/|/\___ raster@redhat.com
> Carsten Haitzler | _ //__\\ __||_ __\\ ___|| _ / Red Hat Advanced
> 218/21 Conner Drive || // __ \\_ \ | | \ _/_|| / Development Labs
> Chapel Hill NC 27514 USA ||\\\/ \//__/ |_| /___/||\\ 919 547 0012 ext 282
> +1 (919) 929 9443, 801 4392 For pure Enlightenmenthttp://www.rasterman.com/
>
> --
> To unsubscribe: mail gnome-list-request@gnome.org with
> "unsubscribe" as the Subject.
--
*****************************************************************
christoph henrici henrici software, e & b
henrici@dial.eunet.ch fuchsiastrasse 14
+41-1-400 2391 CH-8048 zurich
From raster@redhat.com
Received: (qmail 20983 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 16:16:31 -0000
Received: from lacrosse.redhat.com (root@207.175.42.154)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 16:16:31 -0000
Received: from implant.labs.redhat.com (root@implant.labs.redhat.com [207.175.45.2])
by lacrosse.redhat.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07823;
Mon, 18 May 1998 12:16:30 -0400
Received: from redhat.com (raster@localhost [127.0.0.1])
by implant.labs.redhat.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA31277;
Mon, 18 May 1998 12:17:41 -0400
From: raster@redhat.com
Message-Id: <199805181617.MAA31277@implant.labs.redhat.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:17:40 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: raster@redhat.com
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
To: rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu
cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980518094040.2033A-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On 18 May, robert havoc pennington shouted:
->
-> On Mon, 18 May 1998 raster@redhat.com wrote:
-> >
-> > again a misnoma. different is neither bad nor good - it depends what
-> > new stuff you have. if beinf different was bad a GUi would have never
-> > been invented - terminals wouldnt exits.,. we'd be uing computers with
-> > switches and led's as output. Being diferent and having the guts to try
-> > somehitng new drives innovation and features. don't be afraid of being
-> > different. Embrace it.
-> >
->
-> I agree in principle, but in practice it seems like this sentiment mostly
-> results in difference on the application level, much of it kind of
-> gratuitous (e.g. button styles, where the menu items are, etc.). If our
-> difference is guided by a good plan and is implemented across Gnome, and
-> really truly makes things better, then I'm all for it.
->
-> At this stage there's all kinds of inconsistency in Gnome apps; I think
-> that's good, because lots of things are getting tried out, and the ideas
-> are flowing. Eventually though, IMHO, we want to pick the best of the
-> ideas and impose uniformity. When deciding which ideas to go with, I think
-> we should go with preexisting familiar ideas by default, and be different
-> only if there's a clear tangible benefit or no precedent to base the
-> decision on.
->
-> So basically all I'm saying is let's not be different just to be different
-> - let's have a good reason. And if all major GUI platforms do something
-> one way I think we should do it the same way, because people are familiar
-> with it and those platforms are based on all kinds of usability studies we
-> can't possibly do ourselves.
I agree I just want to warn people off having "blinkers" and just trying
to emulate someone else (ie netx, window macos etc.) and not hink
themselves and perhaps try something new.
-> Havoc
->
->
->
->
--
--------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------------
raster@rasterman.com /\___ /\ ___/||\___ ____/|/\___ raster@redhat.com
Carsten Haitzler | _ //__\\ __||_ __\\ ___|| _ / Red Hat Advanced
218/21 Conner Drive || // __ \\_ \ | | \ _/_|| / Development Labs
Chapel Hill NC 27514 USA ||\\\/ \//__/ |_| /___/||\\ 919 547 0012 ext 282
+1 (919) 929 9443, 801 4392 For pure Enlightenmenthttp://www.rasterman.com/
From raster@redhat.com
Received: (qmail 21000 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 16:16:33 -0000
Received: from lacrosse.redhat.com (root@207.175.42.154)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 16:16:33 -0000
Received: from implant.labs.redhat.com (root@implant.labs.redhat.com [207.175.45.2])
by lacrosse.redhat.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07807;
Mon, 18 May 1998 12:16:17 -0400
Received: from redhat.com (raster@localhost [127.0.0.1])
by implant.labs.redhat.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA31269;
Mon, 18 May 1998 12:17:26 -0400
From: raster@redhat.com
Message-Id: <199805181617.MAA31269@implant.labs.redhat.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:17:23 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: raster@redhat.com
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
To: henrici@dial.eunet.ch
cc: rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu, miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx, gnome-list@gnome.org
In-Reply-To: <35605039.F10DF0D7@dial.eunet.ch>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On 18 May, Christoph Henrici shouted:
-> raster@redhat.com wrote:
-> >
-> > On 18 May, robert havoc pennington shouted:
-> > ->
-> > -> On Mon, 18 May 1998, Miguel de Icaza wrote:
-> > -> >
-> > -> > > when comparing menu popup speeds to say, gtk.. but IMO icewm is
-> > -> > > currently too win95ish for Gnome.
-> > -> >
-> > -> > I believe that arguing on the basis of how similar something is to
-> > -> > Windows 95 is wrong. We should be basing our arguments on the
-> > -> > capabilities and the benefits.
-> > -> >
-> > ->
-> > -> Yes! This is an excellent point. Just because the overall Windows OS is
-> > -> kind of yucky doesn't mean we can't steal shamelessly from their
-> > -> highly-paid UI researchers. We should copy Windows, Mac, NeXT, X, and
-> > -> everything else we can think of to create a nice, familiar synthesis with
-> > -> the best of each. In a real sense Different == Bad when it comes to look
-> > -> and feel.
-> >
-> > again a misnoma. different is neither bad nor good - it depends what
-> > new stuff you have. if beinf different was bad a GUi would have never
-> > been invented - terminals wouldnt exits.,. we'd be uing computers with
-> > switches and led's as output. Being diferent and having the guts to try
-> > somehitng new drives innovation and features. don't be afraid of being
-> > different. Embrace it.
-> >
-> > The ramannt wave of "lets COPY a commercial GUI" that is spreading
-> > through the linux world is rather sad - it shows that there is little
-> > imagination and any form of resarche or willingness to branch off and
-> > at the very least TRY and do better. It is this effor of trying to do
-> > better and probably in the process look different and act differently
-> > that is goign ot differetiate GNOME from KDE and MacOs and windows etc.
...
->
-> NeXTStep was not really that different ... in some areas maybe an
-> enhancement to the Finder (.... more and more intuitive drag and
-> drop...)
-> but in other area's really worse ..... (screen real estate etc.)
next was well put together.. but again boring. MUI on the amiga was
getting the right idea.. and it can be built on and imporved and
changed in some ways... next still suffered from what I do believe GTK
suffers form.. they "oh you run 1204x768 - you dont want more than one
app open so lest fill your screen with extraneous pixels wasted in
padding bordering etc." gtk looks good.. but I personally like haveing
10 apps open at once all visible without overlap.. yes i run high
reses.. just to do this. the amiga has minimal use of screen-space for
widgets.. no extraneous padding.. just good solid gadgets nicely
packed..:) but i'm not goign to complain.. tis just a "point" i'm
making...
-> > It is goign to be what attracts people to it - a GUi that has FRESH
-> > ideas - not just the old ones recycled. This may involve bastardisting
-> > current ideas and meshing them - but do nto restrict ourselves to what
-> > has alreday been done.
->
-> One of the problems, certainly is, ideas versus what can be done today
-> ...
a lot of stuff can be done.. maybe slowly or ineficiently (cause not
everyone has 128MB of ram) but it doesn't mean we cant put the feature
in and have it able to be turne on and off at whim.. so whne peolpe do
get machines capable.. they can try out that fancy shit.. :)
-> but still .....
->
->
-> >
-> > --
-> > --------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------------
-> > raster@rasterman.com /\___ /\ ___/||\___ ____/|/\___ raster@redhat.com
-> > Carsten Haitzler | _ //__\\ __||_ __\\ ___|| _ / Red Hat Advanced
-> > 218/21 Conner Drive || // __ \\_ \ | | \ _/_|| / Development Labs
-> > Chapel Hill NC 27514 USA ||\\\/ \//__/ |_| /___/||\\ 919 547 0012 ext 282
-> > +1 (919) 929 9443, 801 4392 For pure Enlightenmenthttp://www.rasterman.com/
-> >
-> > --
-> > To unsubscribe: mail gnome-list-request@gnome.org with
-> > "unsubscribe" as the Subject.
->
--
--------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------------
raster@rasterman.com /\___ /\ ___/||\___ ____/|/\___ raster@redhat.com
Carsten Haitzler | _ //__\\ __||_ __\\ ___|| _ / Red Hat Advanced
218/21 Conner Drive || // __ \\_ \ | | \ _/_|| / Development Labs
Chapel Hill NC 27514 USA ||\\\/ \//__/ |_| /___/||\\ 919 547 0012 ext 282
+1 (919) 929 9443, 801 4392 For pure Enlightenmenthttp://www.rasterman.com/
From dusk@smsi-roman.com
Received: (qmail 26940 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 16:39:51 -0000
Received: from smsi-roman.com (root@206.191.206.11)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 16:39:51 -0000
Received: from thunder.smsi-roman.com (thunder.smsi-roman.com [192.168.9.4])
by smsi-roman.com (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP
id LAA02897; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:35:44 -0500
Received: from night.smsi-roman.com by thunder.smsi-roman.com id aa04809;
18 May 98 11:31 CDT
Message-ID: <356063EB.37B4E871@smsi-roman.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:38:03 -0500
From: John R Sheets <dusk@smsi-roman.com>
Organization: SMSI
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: raster@redhat.com
CC: rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu, miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx, gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
References: <199805181433.KAA04879@trode.redhat.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Well, it's certainly not going to hurt GNOME to experiment around
with its GUI. On one hand, I think GNOME should aspire to
combine the best elements of the commercial GUI's in the best way
possible (perhaps discarding a few good features if they don't
fit in with the whole). On the other hand, we need to nurture
the more radical ideas that will help give GNOME that extra zip
and allow it to live up to its potential. We need a solid left
wing and a solid right wing.
I would say three of the most important qualities of a good GUI
are consistency, convenience, and scalability (off the top of my
head):
-Consistency is obvious: an "interface" implies that it provides
the same types of services to the front ends of various
applications, etc.
-Without convenience, users will tend to migrate to the more
usable GUI's. Plus, that's what a UI is _for_, right? So we
don't have to type everything in from the command line?
-And finally, we need scalability (i.e. extensibility) so that
when the GUI matures and expands, we can do it gracefully, and
not have to redesign the GUI to accomodate new situations. This
last one is the tough pickle, and it's a little harder to
quantify. It's more a measure of the GUI's potential.
Anyway, just trying to stir up the pot a little...
John
P.S.--Is this discussion what the gnome-gui-list is for? I don't
know--I'm asking...
raster@redhat.com wrote:
>
> On 18 May, robert havoc pennington shouted:
> ->
> -> On Mon, 18 May 1998, Miguel de Icaza wrote:
> -> >
> -> > > when comparing menu popup speeds to say, gtk.. but IMO icewm is
> -> > > currently too win95ish for Gnome.
> -> >
> -> > I believe that arguing on the basis of how similar something is to
> -> > Windows 95 is wrong. We should be basing our arguments on the
> -> > capabilities and the benefits.
> -> >
> ->
> -> Yes! This is an excellent point. Just because the overall Windows OS is
> -> kind of yucky doesn't mean we can't steal shamelessly from their
> -> highly-paid UI researchers. We should copy Windows, Mac, NeXT, X, and
> -> everything else we can think of to create a nice, familiar synthesis with
> -> the best of each. In a real sense Different == Bad when it comes to look
> -> and feel.
>
> again a misnoma. different is neither bad nor good - it depends what
> new stuff you have. if beinf different was bad a GUi would have never
> been invented - terminals wouldnt exits.,. we'd be uing computers with
> switches and led's as output. Being diferent and having the guts to try
> somehitng new drives innovation and features. don't be afraid of being
> different. Embrace it.
>
> The ramannt wave of "lets COPY a commercial GUI" that is spreading
> through the linux world is rather sad - it shows that there is little
> imagination and any form of resarche or willingness to branch off and
> at the very least TRY and do better. It is this effor of trying to do
> better and probably in the process look different and act differently
> that is goign ot differetiate GNOME from KDE and MacOs and windows etc.
> It is goign to be what attracts people to it - a GUi that has FRESH
> ideas - not just the old ones recycled. This may involve bastardisting
> current ideas and meshing them - but do nto restrict ourselves to what
> has alreday been done.
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
Received: (qmail 12599 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 17:01:16 -0000
Received: from athena.nuclecu.unam.mx (132.248.29.9)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 17:01:16 -0000
Received: (from miguel@localhost)
by athena.nuclecu.unam.mx (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16293;
Mon, 18 May 1998 11:58:26 -0500
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:58:26 -0500
Message-Id: <199805181658.LAA16293@athena.nuclecu.unam.mx>
From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: raster@redhat.com
CC: rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu, gnome-list@gnome.org
In-reply-to: <199805181433.KAA04879@trode.redhat.com> (raster@redhat.com)
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
X-Windows: Live the nightmare.
> Being diferent and having the guts to try somehitng new drives
> innovation and features. don't be afraid of being different. Embrace
> it.
Yes, raster, but that is not the point we are arguing.
The point is not `dare to be different', the point is: `do not discard
good ideas just because they originated in a system you dislike'.
Miguel.
From nuke@bayside.net
Received: (qmail 9436 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 18:05:03 -0000
Received: from nuklear.steelcity.net (208.22.42.104)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 18:05:03 -0000
Received: from localhost (nuke@localhost)
by nuklear.steelcity.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id VAA26974;
Mon, 18 May 1998 21:54:28 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: nuklear.steelcity.net: nuke owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:54:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: <nuke@bayside.net>
X-Sender: nuke@nuklear.steelcity.net
To: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
In-Reply-To: <199805180515.AAA07509@athena.nuclecu.unam.mx>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980518215044.26894F-100000@nuklear.steelcity.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 18 May 1998, Miguel de Icaza wrote:
>
> > when comparing menu popup speeds to say, gtk.. but IMO icewm is
> > currently too win95ish for Gnome.
>
> I believe that arguing on the basis of how similar something is to
> Windows 95 is wrong. We should be basing our arguments on the
> capabilities and the benefits.
>
> For example, what is wrong with Windows 95 user interface? Lets focus
> on fixing those problems, not on dismissing any feature because it
> happens to be present on Windows 95.
that's not what i was getting at. personally, i hate insults of fvwm95,
Qt's UI, and the like.. i'm pointing out that gtk's button drawing and
menu code could be used instead of icewm's built in toolkit. it would be a
more "standard" feel for the whole desktop. and no, i'm not putting down
the taskbar or even the little "Start"-like menu. if they were as
configurable as the gnome panel, they'd be excellent.
_ _ __ __ _ _ _
| / |/ /_ __/ /_____ | Nuke Skyjumper |
| / / // / '_/ -_) | "Master of the Farce" |
|_ /_/|_/\_,_/_/\_\\__/ _|_ nuke@bayside.net _|
From nuke@bayside.net
Received: (qmail 14709 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 18:08:24 -0000
Received: from nuklear.steelcity.net (208.22.42.104)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 18:08:24 -0000
Received: from localhost (nuke@localhost)
by nuklear.steelcity.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id VAA26987;
Mon, 18 May 1998 21:59:02 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: nuklear.steelcity.net: nuke owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:59:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: <nuke@bayside.net>
X-Sender: nuke@nuklear.steelcity.net
To: robert havoc pennington <rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu>
cc: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>, gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980518004642.27181b-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980518215717.26894H-100000@nuklear.steelcity.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 18 May 1998, robert havoc pennington wrote:
>
> On Mon, 18 May 1998, Miguel de Icaza wrote:
> >
> > > when comparing menu popup speeds to say, gtk.. but IMO icewm is
> > > currently too win95ish for Gnome.
> >
> > I believe that arguing on the basis of how similar something is to
> > Windows 95 is wrong. We should be basing our arguments on the
> > capabilities and the benefits.
> >
>
> Yes! This is an excellent point. Just because the overall Windows OS is
> kind of yucky doesn't mean we can't steal shamelessly from their
> highly-paid UI researchers. We should copy Windows, Mac, NeXT, X, and
> everything else we can think of to create a nice, familiar synthesis with
> the best of each. In a real sense Different == Bad when it comes to look
> and feel.
>
> That said, I would love to see icewm borrow a few drawing routines from
> Gtk for purely cosmetic reasons; it'd be neat if the task bar buttons
> looked like Gtk buttons, and the "start" menu looked like a Gtk menu. I
> don't know if actually using Gtk would be the fastest or best way to
> achieve this or not. I guess I'd vote against using Gtk since icewm is
> already fast, small, and stable - it ain't broke, don't fix. Using Gtk
> would enable themes and so on but if you want that there's always E.
in more words, this is exactly what i said. the gnome desktop might be
better off having a gtk-like feel.
> I think the icewm author is an excellent UI designer; it's clean,
> consistent, attractive, fast, easy, and almost bug-free. It has all the
> features you need and no more, and a professional polish I haven't seen in
> any other wm except olvwm (though I haven't tried mwm/CDE). It made me
> very happy when he said he'd Gnomify. We should copy icewm, not screw it
> up.
*high-five*
_ _ __ __ _ _ _
| / |/ /_ __/ /_____ | Nuke Skyjumper |
| / / // / '_/ -_) | "Master of the Farce" |
|_ /_/|_/\_,_/_/\_\\__/ _|_ nuke@bayside.net _|
From raster@redhat.com
Received: (qmail 30547 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 18:18:07 -0000
Received: from lacrosse.redhat.com (root@207.175.42.154)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 18:18:07 -0000
Received: from implant.labs.redhat.com (root@implant.labs.redhat.com [207.175.45.2])
by lacrosse.redhat.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15581;
Mon, 18 May 1998 14:18:06 -0400
Received: from redhat.com (raster@localhost [127.0.0.1])
by implant.labs.redhat.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA31831;
Mon, 18 May 1998 14:19:16 -0400
From: raster@redhat.com
Message-Id: <199805181819.OAA31831@implant.labs.redhat.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:19:15 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: raster@redhat.com
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
To: miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
cc: rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu, gnome-list@gnome.org
In-Reply-To: <199805181658.LAA16293@athena.nuclecu.unam.mx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On 18 May, Miguel de Icaza shouted:
->
-> > Being diferent and having the guts to try somehitng new drives
-> > innovation and features. don't be afraid of being different. Embrace
-> > it.
->
-> Yes, raster, but that is not the point we are arguing.
->
-> The point is not `dare to be different', the point is: `do not discard
-> good ideas just because they originated in a system you dislike'.
but it also not to just go taking ideas off a system just because its
already out there.. any idea "taken" shoudl be thouroughly thought
over, mulled over, possible mutations and improvments thought about
etc. BEFORE adopting it.
-> Miguel.
--
--------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------------
raster@rasterman.com /\___ /\ ___/||\___ ____/|/\___ raster@redhat.com
Carsten Haitzler | _ //__\\ __||_ __\\ ___|| _ / Red Hat Advanced
218/21 Conner Drive || // __ \\_ \ | | \ _/_|| / Development Labs
Chapel Hill NC 27514 USA ||\\\/ \//__/ |_| /___/||\\ 919 547 0012 ext 282
+1 (919) 929 9443, 801 4392 For pure Enlightenmenthttp://www.rasterman.com/
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
Received: (qmail 4969 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 19:12:03 -0000
Received: from athena.nuclecu.unam.mx (132.248.29.9)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 19:12:03 -0000
Received: (from miguel@localhost)
by athena.nuclecu.unam.mx (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA18882;
Mon, 18 May 1998 14:08:55 -0500
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:08:55 -0500
Message-Id: <199805181908.OAA18882@athena.nuclecu.unam.mx>
From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: nuke@bayside.net
CC: rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu, gnome-list@gnome.org
In-reply-to: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980518215717.26894H-100000@nuklear.steelcity.net>
(nuke@bayside.net)
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
X-Windows: It could be worse, but it'll take time.
> in more words, this is exactly what i said. the gnome desktop might be
> better off having a gtk-like feel.
Oh yes, I agree with you on this.
Miguel.
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
Received: (qmail 9387 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 19:15:29 -0000
Received: from athena.nuclecu.unam.mx (132.248.29.9)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 19:15:29 -0000
Received: (from miguel@localhost)
by athena.nuclecu.unam.mx (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA18954;
Mon, 18 May 1998 14:12:30 -0500
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:12:30 -0500
Message-Id: <199805181912.OAA18954@athena.nuclecu.unam.mx>
From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: raster@redhat.com
CC: rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu, gnome-list@gnome.org
In-reply-to: <199805181819.OAA31831@implant.labs.redhat.com>
(raster@redhat.com)
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
X-Windows: Even your dog won't like it.
> but it also not to just go taking ideas off a system just because its
> already out there.. any idea "taken" shoudl be thouroughly thought
> over, mulled over, possible mutations and improvments thought about
> etc. BEFORE adopting it.
I advocate more the "plug the code, then figure out if it can be
improved" model.
If we go down the "think thouroughly, mull it over, think about
mutations and improvements" we might end up like the Berlin project.
For instance, we are going to adopt a lot of known-to-work well stuff
that we just do not have the resources to reinvent.
Best wishes,
Miguel.
From raster@redhat.com
Received: (qmail 10867 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 21:39:09 -0000
Received: from lacrosse.redhat.com (root@207.175.42.154)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 21:39:09 -0000
Received: from implant.labs.redhat.com (root@implant.labs.redhat.com [207.175.45.2])
by lacrosse.redhat.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA32185;
Mon, 18 May 1998 17:39:09 -0400
Received: from redhat.com (raster@localhost [127.0.0.1])
by implant.labs.redhat.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08577;
Mon, 18 May 1998 17:40:19 -0400
From: raster@redhat.com
Message-Id: <199805182140.RAA08577@implant.labs.redhat.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:40:16 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: raster@redhat.com
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
To: miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
cc: rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu, gnome-list@gnome.org
In-Reply-To: <199805181912.OAA18954@athena.nuclecu.unam.mx>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On 18 May, Miguel de Icaza shouted:
->
-> > but it also not to just go taking ideas off a system just because its
-> > already out there.. any idea "taken" shoudl be thouroughly thought
-> > over, mulled over, possible mutations and improvments thought about
-> > etc. BEFORE adopting it.
->
-> I advocate more the "plug the code, then figure out if it can be
-> improved" model.
->
-> If we go down the "think thouroughly, mull it over, think about
-> mutations and improvements" we might end up like the Berlin project.
->
-> For instance, we are going to adopt a lot of known-to-work well stuff
-> that we just do not have the resources to reinvent.
ture.. but mulling it over doesnt take weeks or months for a single
button (as I see often arguments goign for weeks about stupid little
things) I personally, when I develop simply work on other stuff I have
firm Ideas on whilst I mull over new ideas.. it means things don't slow
down..
-> Best wishes,
-> Miguel.
--
--------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------------
raster@rasterman.com /\___ /\ ___/||\___ ____/|/\___ raster@redhat.com
Carsten Haitzler | _ //__\\ __||_ __\\ ___|| _ / Red Hat Advanced
218/21 Conner Drive || // __ \\_ \ | | \ _/_|| / Development Labs
Chapel Hill NC 27514 USA ||\\\/ \//__/ |_| /___/||\\ 919 547 0012 ext 282
+1 (919) 929 9443, 801 4392 For pure Enlightenmenthttp://www.rasterman.com/
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
Received: (qmail 16068 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 22:09:11 -0000
Received: from athena.nuclecu.unam.mx (132.248.29.9)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 22:09:11 -0000
Received: (from miguel@localhost)
by athena.nuclecu.unam.mx (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23037;
Mon, 18 May 1998 17:05:38 -0500
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:05:38 -0500
Message-Id: <199805182205.RAA23037@athena.nuclecu.unam.mx>
From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: raster@redhat.com
CC: rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu, gnome-list@gnome.org
In-reply-to: <199805182140.RAA08577@implant.labs.redhat.com>
(raster@redhat.com)
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
X-Windows: Japan's secret weapon.
> ture.. but mulling it over doesnt take weeks or months for a single
> button (as I see often arguments goign for weeks about stupid little
> things) I personally, when I develop simply work on other stuff I have
> firm Ideas on whilst I mull over new ideas.. it means things don't slow
> down..
We agree completely on this.
Miguel.
From sp249@cam.ac.uk
Received: (qmail 21222 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 22:58:23 -0000
Received: from teatime.joh.cam.ac.uk (sp249@131.111.135.106)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 22:58:23 -0000
Received: from localhost (sp249@localhost)
by teatime.joh.cam.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA13465;
Mon, 18 May 1998 23:52:59 +0100
X-Authentication-Warning: teatime.joh.cam.ac.uk: sp249 owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:52:58 +0100 (BST)
From: Stephanos Piperoglou <sp249@cam.ac.uk>
X-Sender: sp249@teatime.joh.cam.ac.uk
To: John R Sheets <dusk@smsi-roman.com>
cc: raster@redhat.com, rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu, miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx,
gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
In-Reply-To: <356063EB.37B4E871@smsi-roman.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980518234915.6080A-100000@teatime.joh.cam.ac.uk>
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 18 May 1998, John R Sheets wrote:
> -And finally, we need scalability (i.e. extensibility) so that
> when the GUI matures and expands, we can do it gracefully, and
> not have to redesign the GUI to accomodate new situations. This
> last one is the tough pickle, and it's a little harder to
> quantify. It's more a measure of the GUI's potential.
And another thing about scalability: Yes, the GUI means you don't have to
type in everything at the command line, but we also need the power to do
this. This is the Unix world. Most of GNOME's users, at least initially,
will want to be able to customize, tweak and control their environment to
death. We want customization to the extreme, and compatibility with things
that people know. A GUI doesn't mean *simplify*. It means make the interface
faster, but also more efficient. One of the things lacking in GNOME right
now is easy customization, i.e. the panel's main menu. We need a quick and
easy way to add and remove applications, icons and so on.
-- Stephanos Piperoglou -- sp249@cam.ac.uk -------------------
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of `true'.
- Terry Pratchett, The Last Continent
------------------------- http://www.thor.cam.ac.uk/~sp249/ --
From rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu
Received: (qmail 18208 invoked from network); 18 May 1998 23:43:05 -0000
Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (root@128.135.12.3)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 18 May 1998 23:43:05 -0000
Received: from midway.uchicago.edu (root@midway.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.12])
by haven.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA06742;
Mon, 18 May 1998 18:42:54 -0500 (CDT)
Received: from harper.uchicago.edu (4152@harper.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.7])
by midway.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id SAA13526;
Mon, 18 May 1998 18:41:43 -0500 (CDT)
Received: from localhost (rhpennin@localhost) by harper.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3)
with SMTP id SAA14274; Mon, 18 May 1998 18:41:41 -0500 (CDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: harper.uchicago.edu: rhpennin owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:41:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: robert havoc pennington <rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu>
Sender: rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu
Reply-To: robert havoc pennington <rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu>
To: Stephanos Piperoglou <sp249@cam.ac.uk>
cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980518234915.6080A-100000@teatime.joh.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980518183507.2033M-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 18 May 1998, Stephanos Piperoglou wrote:
>
> And another thing about scalability: Yes, the GUI means you don't have to
> type in everything at the command line, but we also need the power to do
> this. This is the Unix world. Most of GNOME's users, at least initially,
> will want to be able to customize, tweak and control their environment to
> death. We want customization to the extreme, and compatibility with things
> that people know.
Agreed, as long as we have time to do it. There are always tradeoffs and
priorities. Can't have everything...
> A GUI doesn't mean *simplify*.
IMO it does in the case of GNOME, at least in part. Making Unix (esp.
Linux) usable for average people is an explicit design goal. If it isn't
relatively simple to use, it's broken, as far as GNOME is concerned.
One way to compromise on this issue is to have "easy" and "advanced"
modes, or "easy" and "advanced" menus/notebook tabs. Or to have advanced
features accessible from scripting languages or the command line. Netscape
uses both of these strategies.
> It means make the interface faster, but also more efficient. One of the
> things lacking in GNOME right now is easy customization, i.e. the
> panel's main menu. We need a quick and easy way to add and remove
> applications, icons and so on.
>
This is on the TODO list, but no one has done it yet. One proposal is to
use a special folder a la Windows/Mac and use gmc as the config tool.
Havoc Penninton ==== http://pobox.com/~hp
From badger@prtr-13.ucsc.edu
Received: (qmail 22692 invoked from network); 19 May 1998 01:34:54 -0000
Received: from mail.cwo.com (207.49.29.8)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 19 May 1998 01:34:54 -0000
Received: from Greyeyes.ucsc.edu (root@port-sac43.cwo.com [207.173.173.158])
by mail.cwo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA15057
for <gnome-list@gnome.org>; Mon, 18 May 1998 18:35:33 -0700
Received: (from badger@localhost)
by Greyeyes.ucsc.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02807;
Mon, 18 May 1998 18:29:01 -0700
Message-ID: <19980518182859.23434@prtr-13.ucsc.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:28:59 -0700
From: Toshio Kuratomi <badger@prtr-13.ucsc.edu>
To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
References: <35605039.F10DF0D7@dial.eunet.ch>
<199805181617.MAA31269@implant.labs.redhat.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature";
micalg=pgp-md5; boundary=xfx0Fr6BT7SoIlom
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88
In-Reply-To: <199805181617.MAA31269@implant.labs.redhat.com>;
from raster@redhat.com on Mon, May 18, 1998 at 12:17:23PM -0400
--xfx0Fr6BT7SoIlom
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Mon, 18 May, 1998 at 12:17:23PM -0400, raster@redhat.com set free these words:
>
> next was well put together.. but again boring. MUI on the amiga was
> getting the right idea.. and it can be built on and imporved and
> changed in some ways... next still suffered from what I do believe GTK
> suffers form.. they "oh you run 1204x768 - you dont want more than one
> app open so lest fill your screen with extraneous pixels wasted in
> padding bordering etc." gtk looks good.. but I personally like haveing
> 10 apps open at once all visible without overlap.. yes i run high
> reses.. just to do this. the amiga has minimal use of screen-space for
> widgets.. no extraneous padding.. just good solid gadgets nicely
> packed.. :) but i'm not goign to complain.. tis just a "point" i'm
> making...
>
Does anyone have an Amiga that they could do screenshots from that might
show off some of the good design features? I'm sorry to say I've never had an
opportunity to look at an Amiga....
-Toshio
--
badger \"Life is like a china candy dish, filled with brightly promising
@prtr-13 \ sweets, quickly empited. lasts longer. dropped. it breaks."
.ucsc.edu \~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~
From dusk@smsi-roman.com
Received: (qmail 19760 invoked from network); 19 May 1998 15:12:20 -0000
Received: from smsi-roman.com (root@206.191.206.11)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 19 May 1998 15:12:20 -0000
Received: from thunder.smsi-roman.com (thunder.smsi-roman.com [192.168.9.4])
by smsi-roman.com (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP
id KAA04259; Tue, 19 May 1998 10:08:24 -0500
Received: from night.smsi-roman.com by thunder.smsi-roman.com id aa26943;
19 May 98 9:59 CDT
Message-ID: <3561A00C.A9E46BA6@smsi-roman.com>
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:06:52 -0500
From: John R Sheets <dusk@smsi-roman.com>
Organization: SMSI
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: robert havoc pennington <rhpennin@midway.uchicago.edu>
CC: Stephanos Piperoglou <sp249@cam.ac.uk>, gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
References: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980518183507.2033M-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
robert havoc pennington wrote:
>
> On Mon, 18 May 1998, Stephanos Piperoglou wrote:
> >
> > And another thing about scalability: Yes, the GUI means you don't have to
> > type in everything at the command line, but we also need the power to do
> > this. This is the Unix world. Most of GNOME's users, at least initially,
> > will want to be able to customize, tweak and control their environment to
> > death. We want customization to the extreme, and compatibility with things
> > that people know.
>
> Agreed, as long as we have time to do it. There are always tradeoffs and
> priorities. Can't have everything...
>
> > A GUI doesn't mean *simplify*.
>
> IMO it does in the case of GNOME, at least in part. Making Unix (esp.
> Linux) usable for average people is an explicit design goal. If it isn't
> relatively simple to use, it's broken, as far as GNOME is concerned.
I agree that a GUI doesn't mean "simplify" in a global sense.
You don't want to simplify everything. But I don't think we can
safely say that categorically. It simplifies (mostly through
making it more intuitive) the *interface*, but hopefully not to
the OS. I think that's part of the problem with Windows: the GUI
has begun to dictate the OS, not vice versa....moving from a GUI
to a GOS. (c;
> One way to compromise on this issue is to have "easy" and "advanced"
> modes, or "easy" and "advanced" menus/notebook tabs. Or to have advanced
> features accessible from scripting languages or the command line. Netscape
> uses both of these strategies.
Yes. That's kind of what I was getting at with "scalability".
You need to let the users choose their own depth. Make things
frighteningly simple to set up so that GNOME/Linux will still
attract the easily-intimidated new users. But also set aside a
place (i.e. depth) in the GUI where advanced users can dig in up
to their knees (hopefully with good links to the help system).
It would be nice to design a solid, hierarchial, modular GNOME
Setup, that's not conceptually limited to, e.g., two levels
(Basic & Advanced), but rather an extensible step-by-step drop
from the most basic, clear down to the inner-most reaches. Make
it modular, of course, so that we don't have to do it all up
front.
>From there, the question becomes "Do we want it all in one place,
or distributed evenly throughout GNOME & GNOME's applications?"
Do we want a single configuration tool (or suite of tools), or do
we want to integrate it into the GNOME style of doing things?
One of the advantages to the second idea is that it would help
unify the configurations for all GNOME applications. You might
have a standard "Configure..." item on your File menu that brings
up the standard GNOME configuration dialog, populated with that
application's particular list of settings, regardless of whether
it's for the print setup, game options, TCP/IP settings, widget
styles, internationalizations (or not), modem parameters,
plug-ins, and whatever else the user might want to configure.
This also seems to support the UNIX philosophy of putting the
editables in a different place than the read-only's (e.g. /usr
vs. /var).
I dunno. Would a tree control be flexible enough for this? On
the other hand, it does seem like it would fit in with the
concept of themes: user depth would be another theme parameter.
However, this is probably fanciful thinking, because it would
almost imply a change in the interface for each "depth level". I
think GNOME would be better served if all the options were always
available to all users (security issues aside). Just not all up
front....
--John
From raster@redhat.com
Received: (qmail 10688 invoked from network); 19 May 1998 15:26:51 -0000
Received: from lacrosse.redhat.com (root@207.175.42.154)
by mail2.redhat.com with SMTP; 19 May 1998 15:26:51 -0000
Received: from implant.labs.redhat.com (root@implant.labs.redhat.com [207.175.45.2])
by lacrosse.redhat.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12222;
Tue, 19 May 1998 11:26:50 -0400
Received: from redhat.com (raster@localhost [127.0.0.1])
by implant.labs.redhat.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17186;
Tue, 19 May 1998 11:28:01 -0400
From: raster@redhat.com
Message-Id: <199805191528.LAA17186@implant.labs.redhat.com>
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:27:58 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: raster@redhat.com
Subject: Re: gtk icewm?
To: badger@prtr-13.ucsc.edu
cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
In-Reply-To: <19980518182859.23434@prtr-13.ucsc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On 18 May, Toshio Kuratomi shouted:
-> On Mon, 18 May, 1998 at 12:17:23PM -0400, raster@redhat.com set free these words:
-> >
-> > next was well put together.. but again boring. MUI on the amiga was
-> > getting the right idea.. and it can be built on and imporved and
-> > changed in some ways... next still suffered from what I do believe GTK
-> > suffers form.. they "oh you run 1204x768 - you dont want more than one
-> > app open so lest fill your screen with extraneous pixels wasted in
-> > padding bordering etc." gtk looks good.. but I personally like haveing
-> > 10 apps open at once all visible without overlap.. yes i run high
-> > reses.. just to do this. the amiga has minimal use of screen-space for
-> > widgets.. no extraneous padding.. just good solid gadgets nicely
-> > packed.. :) but i'm not goign to complain.. tis just a "point" i'm
-> > making...
-> >
-> Does anyone have an Amiga that they could do screenshots from that might
-> show off some of the good design features? I'm sorry to say I've never had an
-> opportunity to look at an Amiga....
http://www.labs.redhat.com/~raster/amiga_desktops/
the last 2 (wb8.png and wb9.png) was my old amiga desktop - only
800x600 (but for an amiga that was pretty hi-res - 14" only) and my
whole desktop ran in 32 color mode only - I didn't need 256 colors, and
somehwo I still managed to make it come off okay... that comes form
years of palette designing experience :).
-> -Toshio
--
--------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------------
raster@rasterman.com /\___ /\ ___/||\___ ____/|/\___ raster@redhat.com
Carsten Haitzler | _ //__\\ __||_ __\\ ___|| _ / Red Hat Advanced
218/21 Conner Drive || // __ \\_ \ | | \ _/_|| / Development Labs
Chapel Hill NC 27514 USA ||\\\/ \//__/ |_| /___/||\\ 919 547 0012 ext 282
+1 (919) 929 9443, 801 4392 For pure Enlightenmenthttp://www.rasterman.com/