From pauljohn@ukans.edu
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:00:30 -0500 ()
From: Paul Johnson <pauljohn@ukans.edu>
To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Are their public standards for "window manager compatability"?
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I love WindowMaker (WM ) and would be disappointed if I had to switch to
use Gnome. I gave up on KDE because it didn't run well without their kwm,
and I expect gnome will lose users if some particular WM is specified.
On the WM list, I asked the experts about gnome compatability and they
reacted with, well, dismay. Several indicated they had made an effort to
find out what Gnome would require and they were not able to do so. I
think there is a fear that E will become the default window manager and
others will not be able to adjust because the "compatability" standards
are not well articulated.
If I have this wrong, please point me to the place where the standards
are described and I'll make sure they get forwarded to the WindowMaker
crew. I've found them to be extremely highly responsive and I'm sure
adjustments can be made. WM is, after all, a highly evolved window
manager that talks to applications when the applications know how to talk
back.
Paul E. Johnson pauljohn@ukans.edu
Dept. of Political Science http://lark.cc.ukans.edu/~pauljohn
University of Kansas
Lawrence, Kansas 66045
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:19:20 -0500
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: pauljohn@ukans.edu
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In-reply-to: <Pine.WNT.3.95.980510225449.-101081G-100000@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>
(message from Paul Johnson on Sun, 10 May 1998 23:00:30 -0500 ())
Subject: Re: Are their public standards for "window manager compatability"?
X-Lost: In case of doubt, make it sound convincing
> On the WM list, I asked the experts about gnome compatability and they
> reacted with, well, dismay. Several indicated they had made an effort to
> find out what Gnome would require and they were not able to do so. I
> think there is a fear that E will become the default window manager and
> others will not be able to adjust because the "compatability" standards
> are not well articulated.
Well thing is like this: most GNOME hacker have been busy coding GNOME
applications and so have had little time to learn more about Window
Manager internals. I would personally appreciate if the window
manager hackers joined us so that we could discuss what gnome needs
and what is the best way to make gnome and the window managers
interact.
The ICEWM author happens to be on this list and happens to contribute
to this discussion, that is the reason we have got very entusiastic
about icewm.
At some point I tried mailing the WindowMaker list but my message
bounced, I had to be a subscriber to post, so I forwarded my mail to a
friend of mine which was relaying it to the WindowMaker people. I
have not heard from them since then.
Miguel.
From raster@redhat.com
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Reply-To: raster@redhat.com
Subject: Re: Are their public standards for "window manager compatability"?
To: pauljohn@ukans.edu
cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
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On 10 May, Paul Johnson shouted:
->
-> I love WindowMaker (WM ) and would be disappointed if I had to switch to
-> use Gnome. I gave up on KDE because it didn't run well without their kwm,
-> and I expect gnome will lose users if some particular WM is specified.
->
-> On the WM list, I asked the experts about gnome compatability and they
-> reacted with, well, dismay. Several indicated they had made an effort to
-> find out what Gnome would require and they were not able to do so. I
-> think there is a fear that E will become the default window manager and
fear? why? nothing to be afraid of. E won't bite. Well 0.14 doesn't. it
slides and glides.. :)
-> others will not be able to adjust because the "compatability" standards
-> are not well articulated.
->
-> If I have this wrong, please point me to the place where the standards
-> are described and I'll make sure they get forwarded to the WindowMaker
-> crew. I've found them to be extremely highly responsive and I'm sure
-> adjustments can be made. WM is, after all, a highly evolved window
-> manager that talks to applications when the applications know how to talk
-> back.
currently its very simple.. make u're WM honor motif WM hints - if u
get a window setting these hints that has all the decoration flags off
(E 0.14 only checks if title and border are both off - if these 2 are
off it make sit a borderless window). all the MWM stuf u can extract
out of the fvwm source.. or in a few weeks you can juust steal mwm.c
from E that has all the mwm hints nicely packaged into one single
file..:)
as for the future, the ICEWM people have said they are planning on
extending WM hints to inlcude sticky and ontop hints. Has this been
actualyl coded yet? if so someone tell me.. :) i'll add it into E..
cause i'm goign to need that anyway.. either its been done, or i'll go
off and do it and tell people how - I will happily then hack the panel
to detect a WM that supports these hints, and instead fo
override-redirect, use a normal managed window. I will probably have to
do this to gmc's icons too.. they will NOT behave well wiht E 0.14's
floating desktop system.. neither will the panel. this will also
benefit other WM writers/users.
also in addition Nat form Linuxnet has hacked a new set of properties
for backgrounds, so an app can infact extract the pixmap id of the root
window and then us it (ie to give a "tranparent" effect) - he's alreday
hacked this and I have the support in E 0.14 (since E sets the root bg
and all desktop bgs' too).
to "partake" in this protocol you set 2 properties on the rot window
(or in E's case the root window and every floating desktop aswell)
so that u have:
_XROOTCOLOR_PIXEL(CARDINAL) = 0
_XROOTPMAP_ID(PIXMAP): pixmap id # 0x1000023
the _XROOTCOLOR_PIXEL property is the pixel index (value) for a solid
bg - thie root window has this solid colro If the _XROOTPMAP_ID
property value is zero.
in addition I can say E sets the following on the root window and every
desktop:
ENLIGHTENMENT_DESKTOP(CARDINAL) = 0
any window with that property on it is an E desktop, and the number
inthe property data is the desktop number.
E also sets a string property:
ENLIGHTENMENT_COMMS(STRING) = "WINID 1000022"
thats the "communications" poert for E - set ont he root window.
parse the string - check that window ID. if the window ID exists u can
talk to E.. thus you are pretty sure E is the Windowmanager. that
window Id COULd be recycled, so u can also chekc for that property on
the comms window itself.
Basically i'd like everyone writing WM's to come clean and "publish"
their work/coede/standards sofar and try not to re-invent what soemoen
already has done so we dont need to write piles of fallback code in
gnome to cope...
-> Paul E. Johnson pauljohn@ukans.edu
-> Dept. of Political Science http://lark.cc.ukans.edu/~pauljohn
-> University of Kansas
-> Lawrence, Kansas 66045
->
->
--
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From tibbs@hpc.uh.edu
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To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: Are their public standards for "window manager compatability"?
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From: Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs@hpc.uh.edu>
Date: 10 May 1998 23:34:25 -0500
In-Reply-To: Paul Johnson's message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 23:00:30 -0500 ()"
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>>>>> "PJ" == Paul Johnson <pauljohn@ukans.edu> writes:
PJ> On the WM list, I asked the experts about gnome compatability and they
PJ> reacted with, well, dismay. Several indicated they had made an effort
PJ> to find out what Gnome would require and they were not able to do so.
There are also folks wanting to add the necessary support to FVWM, but
until we know _exactly_ what is required, there isn't much anyone can do.
Is there a document that we can work from?
--
Jason L Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-3486 - 660PGH - 94 PC800
System Manager: University of Houston Department of Mathematics
"I survived while Ruby died in Jackie's trashy fantasy..."
From jirka@5z.com
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 21:12:19 -0700
From: George <jirka@5z.com>
To: GNOME Malinglist <gnome-list@gnome.org>
Subject: Re: Are their public standards for "window manager compatability"?
References: <Pine.WNT.3.95.980510225449.-101081G-100000@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>
<ufavhrds9wu.fsf@sina.hpc.uh.edu>
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from Jason L Tibbitts III on Sun, May 10, 1998 at 11:34:25PM -0500
> PJ> On the WM list, I asked the experts about gnome compatability and they
> PJ> reacted with, well, dismay. Several indicated they had made an effort
> PJ> to find out what Gnome would require and they were not able to do so.
>
> There are also folks wanting to add the necessary support to FVWM, but
> until we know _exactly_ what is required, there isn't much anyone can do.
> Is there a document that we can work from?
as of now I think only honouring mwm is enough ... other stuff is more up
to the wm writers ...
one thing that will have to be supported by wm's is session managment!!!
other stuff are some hints for sticky windows etc etc ... the icewm
author is already putting these in so you'd better ask him for what they
are so that we only end up with one set of hints :)
so what is needed:
MWM hints
SM support
ICEWM hints (or equivalent, but I would coordinate with the icewm guy)
George
--
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From tromey@creche.cygnus.com
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To: Paul Johnson <pauljohn@ukans.edu>
Cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: Are their public standards for "window manager compatability"?
References: <Pine.WNT.3.95.980510225449.-101081G-100000@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>
X-Zippy: I'm having an emotional outburst!!
X-Attribution: Tom
BCC:
Reply-To: tromey@cygnus.com
From: Tom Tromey <tromey@cygnus.com>
Date: 11 May 1998 01:07:15 -0600
In-Reply-To: Paul Johnson's message of Sun, 10 May 1998 23:00:30 -0500 ()
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Paul> On the WM list, I asked the experts about gnome compatability
Paul> and they reacted with, well, dismay. Several indicated they had
Paul> made an effort to find out what Gnome would require and they
Paul> were not able to do so.
Paul> If I have this wrong, please point me to the place where the
Paul> standards are described and I'll make sure they get forwarded to
Paul> the WindowMaker crew.
As I understand it, there are two things that will make any given WM
work well with Gnome:
1. It must implement the extended wm hints. I don't know the precise
details of this. I know that various proposals have been floated.
They all looked pretty good to me. The last I heard was that we were
going to use the MWM hints plus whatever the icewm maintainer is
implementing (as his changes seemed all of necessary, sufficient, and
clean) -- but I doubt this is definitive.
2. The wm must implement session management. The reference for this
is the X Session Management Protocol. I got this document from
ftp.x.org. There are at least 2 different session managers you can
use to test this stuff (xsm which comes with X, and gnome-session
which is in gnome-core).
#2 is what is preventing me from using a Gnome session as my standard
setup. The icewm maintainer has been working on this though; a switch
to icewm is likely in my near future.
I'm happy to help any wm maintainer with questions about X session
management. Generally speaking I doubt any help will really be
required, because the docs are fairly clear. Still, feel free to give
out my name and email address if you think it will help -- I'm very
interested in getting this to happen.
Tom