From bruce@va.debian.org
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From: bruce@va.debian.org
To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Licensing discussion with Netscape
I have opened a licensing discussion with a Netscape representative.
I have no information at this time.
Bruce Perens
From rms@santafe.edu
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From: Richard Stallman <rms@santafe.edu>
To: gnome@nuclecu.unam.mx
Subject: Netscape not quite free
Reply-To: rms@gnu.org
Let's not rejoice prematurely. Unfortunately, it looks like Netscape
is NOT going to make the browser free software. From
http://www.internetnews.com/prod-news/1998/01/2204-free.html:
Netscape said it also plans to allow qualified partners to create a
customized version of Netscape Navigator or Netscape Communicator for
redistribution to users.
If true, this implies that users will NOT in general have the freedom
to distribute modified versions, which means that the program will NOT
be free software. So we still won't be allowed to use Netscape in a
free operating system.
The free software movement may be able to get public relations
benefits from this event, maybe even large benefits--but we will have
a big job educating people about the difference between what Netscape
is doing and real free software.
We can hope that Netscape really will make the programs free.
Meanwhile we'll continue working on E-scape.
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
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Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:16:28 -0600
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: rms@gnu.org
CC: gnome@nuclecu.unam.mx
In-reply-to: <199801230359.UAA01070@wijiji.santafe.edu> (message from Richard
Stallman on Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:59:25 -0700)
Subject: Re: Netscape not quite free
X-Unix: is friendly, it is just selective about who its friends are.
> Let's not rejoice prematurely. Unfortunately, it looks like Netscape
> is NOT going to make the browser free software. From
> http://www.internetnews.com/prod-news/1998/01/2204-free.html:
>
> Netscape said it also plans to allow qualified partners to create a
> customized version of Netscape Navigator or Netscape Communicator for
> redistribution to users.
I think you should look at the official statement from Netscape
first. You can get this information from:
http://home.netscape.com/newsref/pr/newsrelease558.html?cp=nws01flh1
The information you got is from a second hand source.
Miguel.
From rms@santafe.edu
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From: Richard Stallman <rms@santafe.edu>
To: miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
Cc: gnome@nuclecu.unam.mx
In-Reply-To: <199801230416.WAA03210@athena.nuclecu.unam.mx> (message from
Miguel de Icaza on Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:16:28 -0600)
Subject: Re: Netscape not quite free
Reply-To: rms@gnu.org
References: <199801230416.WAA03210@athena.nuclecu.unam.mx>
I think you should look at the official statement from Netscape
first.
That is what I did. I read several Netscape announcements
trying to figure out what they had or had not said they would do.
What I found was that they did not make a clear statement
about what they would do. As we've since learned, it is because
they have not decided yet.
From jwz@netscape.com
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Sender: jwz@netscape.com (Jamie Zawinski)
Message-ID: <34CC6F47.8DD005AD@netscape.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 03:11:03 -0800
From: Jamie Zawinski <jwz@netscape.com>
Organization: Netscape Communications Corporation, Mozilla Division
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02 (X11; U; IRIX 6.3 IP32)
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To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: gnome 0.12, Irix 6.3
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Hey there. I'm trying to build Gnome on Irix 6.3 (SGI O2) and having
a rough time.
First, I tried using gcc, but that doesn't work, because the configure
script apparently doesn't know how to create dynamic libraries using
gcc on Irix. The error is
> /tools/ns/soft/gcc-2.7.2.1/run/default/mips_sgi_irix6.2/lib/gcc-lib/mips-s
> gi-irix5.3/2.7.2.1/ld -n32 -shared -o .libs/libgnome.so.0.0.0 -soname libg
> nome.so -set_version 0.0.0:0.0 gnome-hook.o gnome-util.o gnome-config.o gn
> omelib-init.o gnome-dentry.o gnome-dns.o gnome-fileconvert .o gnome-histor
> y.o gnome-mime.o gnome-score.o gnome-string.o gnome-triggers.o
>
> collect2: ld returned 4 exit status
> ld: FATAL 112: cannot link old 32-bit object with -n32 link: gnome-hook.o.
So then I reconfigured using SGI's cc. I only had to make one change
to get it to compile: in gtk-xmhtml/gtk-xmhtml.c is a reference to
__FUNCTION__ which is undefined (a gcc-ism?) There were lots of
warnings, but none jumped out at me as being important.
The second change I needed to make was that libgnomeui/Makefile.in
says
DEFS += -Wall
which is most assuredly a gcc-ism.
After all this, I lose because obgtk/Makefile says
OBJC = gcc
Generating those .o files with gcc brings back the old ld problem
again: SGI's ld dumps core when you try to use it to make shared
libraries with .o files that were generated by gcc. (Actually,
mixing and matching cc and gcc .o files confuses ld really badly
when it's trying to make a shared lib, and it dumps core.)
So I tried changing that "gcc" to "cc", and that loses with
> cc -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I.. -I.. -I./.. -I/usr/local/include -DGNOMELIB
> DIR=\"/usr/local/lib\" -DGNOMEDATADIR=\"/usr/local/share\" -DGNOMELOCALEDIR
> =\"/usr/local/lib/locale\" -I../intl -g -c -DPIC obgtkAcceleratorTable.m
>
> cfe: Error: ./obgtk.h: 5: Cannot open file objc/objc.h for #include
> cfe: Error: ./obgtk.h: 6: Cannot open file objc/objc-api.h for #include
> cfe: Error: ./obgtk.h: 7: Cannot open file objc/Object.h for #include
> cfe: Error: ../obgtk/obgtkAcceleratorTable.h: 4:
> Cannot open file objc/Object.h for #include
> cfe: Error: ../obgtk/obgtkObject.h: 4: Cannot open file objc/Object.h for #include
> cfe: Error: ../obgtk/obgtkTooltips.h: 4: Cannot open file objc/Object.h for #include
I'm guessing the easiest way out of this mess is, "figure out how
to make Irix gcc able to build shared libraries. But I don't know
how to do that.
Any ideas?
(Please CC me on responses, because I'm not on this mailing list.)
--
Jamie Zawinski http://people.netscape.com/jwz/ about:jwz
From sopwith@cuc.edu
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From: Elliot Lee <sopwith@cuc.edu>
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Reply-To: Elliot Lee <sopwith@cuc.edu>
To: Jamie Zawinski <jwz@netscape.com>
cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: gnome 0.12, Irix 6.3
In-Reply-To: <34CC6F47.8DD005AD@netscape.com>
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On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Jamie Zawinski wrote:
> The second change I needed to make was that libgnomeui/Makefile.in
> says
>
> DEFS += -Wall
>
> which is most assuredly a gcc-ism.
>
> After all this, I lose because obgtk/Makefile says
>
> OBJC = gcc
...
> So I tried changing that "gcc" to "cc", and that loses with
>
> > cc -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I.. -I.. -I./.. -I/usr/local/include -DGNOMELIB
> > DIR=\"/usr/local/lib\" -DGNOMEDATADIR=\"/usr/local/share\" -DGNOMELOCALEDIR
> > =\"/usr/local/lib/locale\" -I../intl -g -c -DPIC obgtkAcceleratorTable.m
> >
> > cfe: Error: ./obgtk.h: 5: Cannot open file objc/objc.h for #include
> > cfe: Error: ./obgtk.h: 6: Cannot open file objc/objc-api.h for #include
> > cfe: Error: ./obgtk.h: 7: Cannot open file objc/Object.h for #include
> > cfe: Error: ../obgtk/obgtkAcceleratorTable.h: 4:
> > Cannot open file objc/Object.h for #include
> > cfe: Error: ../obgtk/obgtkObject.h: 4: Cannot open file objc/Object.h for #include
> > cfe: Error: ../obgtk/obgtkTooltips.h: 4: Cannot open file objc/Object.h for #include
Does Irix's CC have Objective C support? That's what it's trying to do
here.
> I'm guessing the easiest way out of this mess is, "figure out how
> to make Irix gcc able to build shared libraries. But I don't know
> how to do that.
I think installing GNU binutils (and then rebuilding gcc so it uses them
instead of the IRIX equivalents) should do the trick. I'm guessing that
the Irix CC doesn't have ObjC support, and obviously Irix's ld doesn't
want to take output from gcc, so...
-- Elliot http://www.redhat.com/
"The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way
to factor large prime numbers." -- Bill Gates from "The Road Ahead," p. 265.
From rosalia@cygnus.com
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From: Mark Galassi <rosalia@cygnus.com>
To: Jamie Zawinski <jwz@netscape.com>
Cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: gnome 0.12, Irix 6.3
In-Reply-To: <34CC6F47.8DD005AD@netscape.com>
References: <34CC6F47.8DD005AD@netscape.com>
X-Mailer: VM 6.39 under Emacs 20.2.1
Jamie> After all this, I lose because obgtk/Makefile says
Jamie> OBJC = gcc
You need an objective C compiler of some sort :-)
I think we should put an autoconf test in that will only traverse the
obj-C source directories if an obj-C compiler is found!
I guess that this will eventually be fixed, so Jamie could just
comment the objgtk and phaser-chess directories out of the respective
Makefile.am and configure.in files.
From tromey@creche.cygnus.com
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To: Mark Galassi <rosalia@cygnus.com>
Cc: Jamie Zawinski <jwz@netscape.com>, gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: gnome 0.12, Irix 6.3
References: <199801261449.HAA09765@papageno.lanl.gov>
X-Zippy: I have a very good DENTAL PLAN. Thank you.
X-Attribution: Tom
BCC:
Reply-To: tromey@cygnus.com
From: Tom Tromey <tromey@creche.cygnus.com>
Date: 26 Jan 1998 11:39:33 -0700
In-Reply-To: Mark Galassi's message of Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:49:25 -0700
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Lines: 7
X-Mailer: Red Gnus v0.34/Emacs 19.34
Mark> I think we should put an autoconf test in that will only
Mark> traverse the obj-C source directories if an obj-C compiler is
Mark> found!
We already have this. The question is, why didn't it work?
Tom
From jwz@netscape.com
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Sender: jwz@netscape.com (Jamie Zawinski)
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Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:50:11 -0800
From: Jamie Zawinski <jwz@netscape.com>
Organization: Netscape Communications Corporation, Mozilla Division
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To: tromey@cygnus.com
CC: Mark Galassi <rosalia@cygnus.com>, gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: gnome 0.12, Irix 6.3
References: <199801261449.HAA09765@papageno.lanl.gov>
<m1iur7f5ay.fsf@creche.cygnus.com>
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Tom Tromey wrote:
>
> Mark> I think we should put an autoconf test in that will only
> Mark> traverse the obj-C source directories if an obj-C compiler is
> Mark> found!
>
> We already have this. The question is, why didn't it work?
I ran configure like so:
( rm config.cache ; setenv CC cc ; ./configure )
But, my system *does* have gcc on it. So maybe configure decided
that it should use cc for C code and gcc for objc code. (Which
turn out not to mix-and-match so well.)
I'll play around with the old-ld stuff.
(Wow, Objective C. I thought the dinosaurs were extinct! :-))
--
Jamie Zawinski http://people.netscape.com/jwz/ about:jwz
From nelson@crynwr.com
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From: Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com>
To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: gnome 0.12, Irix 6.3
In-Reply-To: <m1iur7f5ay.fsf@creche.cygnus.com>
References: <m1iur7f5ay.fsf@creche.cygnus.com>
Tom Tromey writes:
> Mark> I think we should put an autoconf test in that will only
> Mark> traverse the obj-C source directories if an obj-C compiler is
> Mark> found!
>
> We already have this. The question is, why didn't it work?
Good question. Didn't work for me either. config.log says this:
configure:3071: checking for Objective C compiler
gcc: installation problem, cannot exec `cc1obj': No such file or directory
--
-russ <nelson@crynwr.com> http://web.crynwr.com/~nelson
Crynwr Software supports freed software | PGPok | Freedom is the primary
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | cause of Peace, Love,
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX | Truth and Justice.
From jwz@netscape.com
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From: Jamie Zawinski <jwz@netscape.com>
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To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: gnome 0.12, Irix 6.3
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Ok, I got it working!
I configured with $LD set to /usr/lib/old_ld. But after that, I had
to hack several files (./libtool, ./guile-gtk/Makefile,
./guile-gtk/libtool, and ./gemvt/libtool) to not pass the "-n32"
arg to old_ld. It doesn't understand (or, seemingly, want) that arg.
I also had to add <unistd.h> to gtt/app.c, for pid_t.
I had to take "gmix" and "gtop" out of programs/Makefile, since those
programs won't build on Irix.
So, after I did "make" and "make install", I was kind of at a loss.
There ought to be some "roadmap" or something to show me what's there,
or what got built or something... I stumbled around and found "panel"
as a likely jumping-off point... cool! Seems to work great!
Here are the results of the various files that got dumped into my
/usr/local/bin/... Is there somewhere else I should be looking for
"the list of things that Gnome does"?
All of these seem to work fine:
panel, notepad, samegnome, gnomine, keyboard-properties,
mouse-properties, gnomeg, guile-gtk.
These mostly of work:
find-file:
works, but writes to stdout -- shouldn't it be writing into a window?
network-utilities
ping and traceroute work; hostname resolution doesn't:
Invalid query type: A
gtk: Wrong type argument in position 1: #<closed: pipe 0>
These die flaming death:
htmltest
Segmentation fault (core dumped)
GnomeScott
6353:GnomeScott: rld: Warning: version search suppressed because object
libgemvt.so in liblist has non-sgi interface version (0.0)
6353:GnomeScott: rld: Fatal Error: cannot successfully map soname
'libgemvt.so' under any of the filenames /usr/local/lib/libgemvt.so:/
usr/lib/libgemvt.so:/lib/libgemvt.so:/lib/cmplrs/cc/libgemvt.so:/usr/
lib/cmplrs/cc/libgemvt.so:
freecell
6360:freecell: rld: Warning: version search suppressed because object
libgnome.so in liblist has non-sgi interface version (0.0)
6360:freecell: rld: Fatal Error: cannot successfully map soname
'libgnome.so' under any of the filenames /usr/lib/libgnome.so:/lib/
libgnome.so:/lib/cmplrs/cc/libgnome.so:/usr/lib/cmplrs/cc/libgnome.so:
gtt
** ERROR **: BadMatch (invalid parameter attributes)
** ERROR **: BadMatch (invalid parameter attributes)
Abort (core dumped)
gulp
6386:gulp: rld: Warning: version search suppressed because object
libgemvt.so in liblist has non-sgi interface version (0.0)
6386:gulp: rld: Fatal Error: cannot successfully map soname
'libgemvt.so' under any of the filenames /usr/local/lib/libgemvt.so:/
usr/lib/libgemvt.so:/lib/libgemvt.so:/lib/cmplrs/cc/libgemvt.so:/
usr/lib/cmplrs/cc/libgemvt.so:
gnome_linuxconf
if this does anything, I don't know what it is
phaser_chess
objc runtime: cannot find class Gtk_App
Abort (core dumped)
cromagnon
** ERROR **: BadMatch (invalid parameter attributes)
Abort (core dumped)
gtalk
6429:gtalk: rld: Warning: version search suppressed because object
libgemvt.so in liblist has non-sgi interface version (0.0)
6429:gtalk: rld: Fatal Error: cannot successfully map soname
'libgemvt.so' under any of the filenames /usr/local/lib/libgemvt.so:/
usr/lib/libgemvt.so:/lib/libgemvt.so:/lib/cmplrs/cc/libgemvt.so:/usr/
lib/cmplrs/cc/libgemvt.so:
background-properties
** WARNING **: XShmAttach failed!
** ERROR **: BadMatch (invalid parameter attributes)
Abort (core dumped)
Other comments/questions:
* Surely there are man pages or info files somewhere?
* Don't you find it really annoying that hitting RET in a text area
doesn't automatically click on the "Ok" or "Run" button, or
whatever?
* I expected the footprint dingus to be a popup menu, but it's a
stay-up menu instead. That's kind of weird...
* I saw mention of using a "Gnome-aware window manager." What
window manager is this? Where do I get it? What does it give me?
* How do I embed random other programs in the panel? Specifically,
xload, xfaces, xdaliclock, and xpostit?
* How would I go about making it use xscreensaver instead of
xlockmore? Where's the documentation for this kind of stuff?
--
Jamie Zawinski http://people.netscape.com/jwz/ about:jwz
From tromey@creche.cygnus.com
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To: Jamie Zawinski <jwz@netscape.com>
Cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: gnome 0.12, Irix 6.3
References: <34CCF342.6F871E3E@netscape.com>
X-Zippy: I guess it was all a DREAM.. or an episode of HAWAII FIVE-O...
X-Attribution: Tom
BCC:
Reply-To: tromey@cygnus.com
From: Tom Tromey <tromey@creche.cygnus.com>
Date: 26 Jan 1998 14:08:38 -0700
In-Reply-To: Jamie Zawinski's message of Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:34:10 -0800
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Jamie> Here are the results of the various files that got dumped into
Jamie> my /usr/local/bin/... Is there somewhere else I should be
Jamie> looking for "the list of things that Gnome does"?
Not that I know of. The docs are nonexistent at this point, sorry.
Jamie> find-file:
Jamie> works, but writes to stdout -- shouldn't it be writing into
Jamie> a window?
Yeah. The goal is to have it create a virtual folder in the file
manager and put its results there. There isn't much point to making
it do anything until the file manager can handle this. (Actually the
find-file author was going to put the results into a very simple
window, but he seems to have disappeared...)
Jamie> * Surely there are man pages or info files somewhere?
No.
The plan is to write docs using DocBook. gtt is the only program that
actually has any written.
Jamie> * Don't you find it really annoying that hitting RET in a text area
Jamie> doesn't automatically click on the "Ok" or "Run" button, or
Jamie> whatever?
Is this a Gtk issue or a Gnome issue? (I don't know.) If the latter,
I'd suggest sending specific bug reports (aside: does Gnome need a
more formalized bug reporting/tracking system?) to this list. Else
bring it up on the gtk list.
Jamie> * I expected the footprint dingus to be a popup menu, but it's a
Jamie> stay-up menu instead. That's kind of weird...
Yeah, I've noticed this too. It's annoying.
Jamie> * I saw mention of using a "Gnome-aware window manager." What
Jamie> window manager is this? Where do I get it? What does it
Jamie> give me?
It doesn't exist yet.
The idea is that some pieces of functionality will require more
communication with the wm than is defined by the ICCCM. So the Gnome
wm will have a CORBA interface that can be used to do these extra
things.
Offhand I don't remember what they are. There was some discussion
about it in the recent past though.
Jamie> * How do I embed random other programs in the panel? Specifically,
Jamie> xload, xfaces, xdaliclock, and xpostit?
You can't, yet, as far as I know.
Jamie> * How would I go about making it use xscreensaver instead of
Jamie> xlockmore? Where's the documentation for this kind of stuff?
There are no docs.
You'd have to hack display-properties to make it use xscreensaver. In
theory display-properties was written to allow other screen savers to
be plugged in. In practice nobody has done it.
Tom
From jason@jason.gilbert.scott.net
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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:08:35 -0600
From: Jason Gilbert <jason@scott.net>
Organization: University of Alabama at Birmingham
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To: Gnome List <gnome-list@gnome.org>
Subject: Draft of netscape license available
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For anyone interested netscape has now posted a draft version of their
source license. Here's the URL:
http://www.mozilla.org/NPL/
jason
--
Jason Gilbert | http://www.scott.net/~jason/ | http://www.mantissa.com/
"The total job will be in the software, and we'll be able to write big
fat programs. We can let them run somewhat inefficiently because there
will be so much horsepower that just sits there. The real focus won't
be who can cram it down in, or who can do it in machine language. It
will be on who can define the right user interface and properly
integrate the main packages." -- Bill Gates, PC Magazine 1982
From edward@hairnet.demon.co.uk
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Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:20:16 +0000
From: Edward Betts <edward@hairnet.demon.co.uk>
To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: GTK Netscape is impossible
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Since Netscape is released under the Netscape Public Licence (NPL) and not
the GPL as GTK it breaks the GTK to port netscape to GTK. (No program can
use bits of a GPL program without being released GPL).
--
Edward Betts, http://www.hairnet.demon.co.uk/
From che@debian.org
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To: Edward Betts <edward@hairnet.demon.co.uk>
Cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: GTK Netscape is impossible
References: <19980308002016.05750@hairnet.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: che@debian.org
X-Face: -eDkx0I[vNsajBStK^((#;s#wZr+;?Up|;+Zw5JOl]'fINagA)&i4=$2WI'z4U!h0>;A3ON
RW{7<n^q2ZN?'5kU;qyM@jjhm4T8@O>o6imB12xD.pSBhFoqTuF{>b9[K[R\0h=c]Yy6h_R"=Ogv~9
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From: Ben Gertzfield <che@debian.org>
Date: 07 Mar 1998 16:32:30 -0800
In-Reply-To: Edward Betts's message of Sun, 8 Mar 1998 00:20:16 +0000
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>>>>> "Edward" == Edward Betts <edward@hairnet.demon.co.uk> writes:
Edward> Since Netscape is released under the Netscape Public
Edward> Licence (NPL) and not the GPL as GTK it breaks the GTK to
Edward> port netscape to GTK. (No program can use bits of a GPL
Edward> program without being released GPL).
GTK is not a GPL piece of software. It's LGPL, which the NPL agrees
with just fine.
--
Brought to you by the letters L and K and the number 8.
"Tahiti is not in Europe." -- Sneakers
Ben Gertzfield <http://www.imsa.edu/~wilwonka/> Finger me for my public
PGP key. I'm on FurryMUCK as Che, and EFNet and YiffNet IRC as Che_Fox.